The officiating was terrible (state tournament)

[Purple & Gold Standard]

You were thinking 5.2 so they still would've got the shot off and made it and who knows if McCord was holding up 7 fingers for 7 seconds or for 5.2 seconds /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" /> you know for 5.2 he still has 7 fingers up! But that is history and is over Officials will miss calls especially in high paced games with teams with alot of speed! It happens every where and at every level! Officials call what they see and not every call will be correct to everybody at once! 2 teams = 2 points of view! What the official calls is the correct call no matter if it horrible the official is always right cause their point of view is the only 1 that actually matters!!

 

Well,I am not from DC or CPA....I wanted DC to win and still think that the clock was wrong... /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" /> ...What I'm saying is they had the technology to take a look at it...Get it right..If they would have gotten it in in 5.0 fine,but other people are saying 4.6...See my point...Take a look at it and make sure,when you have the capabilty...

Wonder if McCord woulda put up Nine Fingers,you think the Choctaws would have gotten nine seconds??... /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" />

[beavo5]

Well,I am not from DC or CPA....I wanted DC to win and still think that the clock was wrong... /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" /> ...What I'm saying is they had the technology to take a look at it...Get it right..If they would have gotten it in in 5.0 fine,but other people are saying 4.6...See my point...Take a look at it and make sure,when you have the capabilty...

Wonder if McCord woulda put up Nine Fingers,you think the Choctaws would have gotten nine seconds??... /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" />

 

/roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" /> I doubt it very seriously! And I know where you are from UC! The reason they didn't take a look at it is because they don't use instant replay in high school sports!

[Purple & Gold Standard]

/roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" /> I doubt it very seriously! And I know where you are from UC! The reason they didn't take a look at it is because they don't use instant replay in high school sports!

 

They have the capability at the state level though....The T.$.$.A.A. should use that technology at the state level...Then there wouldn't be any of this talk going on when everyone and their brother knows the clock was re-set wrong...You know it too beavo... /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" />(I'm assuming you were there to see it)

 

All I am saying is when you have this much on the line,use whatever resources you have to make it right....Just sayin... /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" />

[beavo5]

They have the capability at the state level though....The T.$.$.A.A. should use that technology at the state level...Then there wouldn't be any of this talk going on when everyone and their brother knows the clock was re-set wrong...You know it too beavo... /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" />(I'm assuming you were there to see it)

 

All I am saying is when you have this much on the line,use whatever resources you have to make it right....Just sayin... /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" />

 

I agree that they have the technology and i agree they should use it but the bottom line is they won't since they don't have it during the season!

[adsmom86]

They have the capability at the state level though....The T.$.$.A.A. should use that technology at the state level...Then there wouldn't be any of this talk going on when everyone and their brother knows the clock was re-set wrong...You know it too beavo... /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" />(I'm assuming you were there to see it)

 

All I am saying is when you have this much on the line,use whatever resources you have to make it right....Just sayin... /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" />

 

Well if they want to review it....let em. Then they can go back and review the first quarter where CPA walked a good 10 to 12 times, which would have meant we would have gotten the ball 10 to 12x more........see where I am going w/this??? The whole game would need to be reviewed. DC's coach could argue about a million missed calls....I mean they only fouled 9x the ENTIRE game..cmon!!!! Tournaments are over. Yes I do think there need to be officials from EACH division of the state. West, middle, east. I saw ridiculous calls in EVERY game I saw.

[Purple & Gold Standard]

Well if they want to review it....let em. Then they can go back and review the first quarter where CPA walked a good 10 to 12 times, which would have meant we would have gotten the ball 10 to 12x more........see where I am going w/this??? The whole game would need to be reviewed. DC's coach could argue about a million missed calls....I mean they only fouled 9x the ENTIRE game..cmon!!!! Tournaments are over. Yes I do think there need to be officials from EACH division of the state. West, middle, east. I saw ridiculous calls in EVERY game I saw.

 

I'm sure they have or will in the near future according to Drew Maddux...And if the roles were reversed McCord would have it reviewed too...Nothing will come from it though...There will be no apology or anything..Refs are not held accountable...You can't ask them questions,they don't make comments...They just go on and do their thing...

 

Why don't we just review every game this season..See where I'm going with that???...If you go to games on a regular basis you learn to live with the missed block/charge calls or the walk/no-walk calls or a good rebound vs an over-the-back call but when you have a situation that happened in this game,in a game of that magnitude,you should have a contigency plan to make it right...Not just pull a number out of the sky...I saw some awful officiating this year...One even so bad that I even commented on it during the regular season,which I don't do....I agree there should not be officials thrown together that have never worked a game together...That's silly..At least have three-men or women crews that have at least worked together during the year....

[adsmom86]

I'm sure they have or will in the near future according to Drew Maddux...And if the roles were reversed McCord would have it reviewed too...Nothing will come from it though...There will be no apology or anything..Refs are not held accountable...You can't ask them questions,they don't make comments...They just go on and do their thing...

 

Why don't we just review every game this season..See where I'm going with that???...If you go to games on a regular basis you learn to live with the missed block/charge calls or the walk/no-walk calls or a good rebound vs an over-the-back call but when you have a situation that happened in this game,in a game of that magnitude,you should have a contigency plan to make it right...Not just pull a number out of the sky...I saw some awful officiating this year...One even so bad that I even commented on it during the regular season,which I don't do....I agree there should not be officials thrown together that have never worked a game together...That's silly..At least have three-men or women crews that have at least worked together during the year....

 

Reviewing every game was were I was going w/my post.....used the analogy about McCord as an example. I have learned to live w/missed calls...happens night in and night out.But 10 to12 missed walks vs. 2-3 is waaaay diff. Not including the total and complete imbalance of fouls called. THAT would have been pts. on the board for us. So yeah it DOES matter in this issue. My issue is inconsistency of calls on a regular basis...if you are gonna officiate do it w/some semblance of consistency. It is unfair to the kids on the court and frustrating to the fans. I REALIZE it is sometimes easier for fans to see missed calls than it is on the court, but the diff. in fouls called for teams this year in the tourney was ridiculous.

[Purple & Gold Standard]

Reviewing every game was were I was going w/my post.....used the analogy about McCord as an example. I have learned to live w/missed calls...happens night in and night out. My issue is inconsistency of calls on a regular basis...if you are gonna officiate do it w/some semblance of consistency. It is unfair to the kids on the court and frustrating to the fans. I REALIZE it is sometimes easier for fans to see missed calls than it is on the court, but the diff. in fouls called for teams this year in the tourney was ridiculous.

 

You are exactly right about consistency..There is none,really.... /thumb[1].gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumb:" border="0" alt="thumb[1].gif" />

 

WE really agree with each other,we are arguing two different points..You consistency,me getting a call right when you have the resources to...

 

It is unfair and it is frustrating....It was frustrating me watching all the other games and I saw all but about 4 qtrs total of the whole tourney....

[chuckm]

I will try to answer your questions. I may not know all the answers.

 

1) There is no state supervisor of officials. Each local association has an assigning officer and supervisors to assist with observing games and providing feedback to officials. The assignor and supervisors also conduct the association meetings, which involve training - rules and mechanics. Each official has to attend five local meetings and one state meeting (this is mainly going over new rules and points of emphasis). Since I have been officiating basketball, Gene Menees from TSSAA office conducts the state rules meetings at all locations across the state, so hopefully every official in the state will hear the same thing at each meeting. To take it a step further, officials must attend a state officiating camp once every three years to work postseason games and attend an invitation-only camp or have worked in a past state tournament to work a state tournament game.

 

2) I know Gene Menees goes out some and watches games across the state. He'll make trips to see officials in East and West Tennessee. He may have others he sends out to watch officials, or, I presume, he may ask supervisors from other areas to go watch someone so there will be another set of eyes observing.

 

4) Each association has an assigning officer and supervisors.

 

5) There are 12 officials assigned to the tournament, according to the program. Same is true for girls tournament. I do not know how many are assigned to Division II. I want to say that there is one official assigned from each association for boys and girls, but I'm not 100% sure on that. I saw in boys program where one association - don't remember which - had two officials. So there may only be 11 associations.

 

6) The state office assigns the officials for each game in the state tournament. An official who works games for a specific school will not work their games in the state tournament (i.e., an official in the Nashville association would not have worked games involving CPA, Clarksville or Antioch, for instance). It wouldn't matter if the official never worked that team's game or not during the season. The official may have seen the team play in regions or sectionals.

 

7) The fee appears to be $50 per game, plus mileage for sectional games (regular game fee for single game in three-person crew) For state games, I presume they also get $50 per game plus lodging, if needed. This is based on the TSSAA Handbook (www.tssaa.org/Handbook/officials.pdf).

 

8) I do not know the answer to this question. I presume that they are evaluated as the tournament goes on by either supervisors who are there and assigned to game or by the state office. I know from friends that football officials are critiqued after the title game, don't know about other sports.

 

Chuck

 

I have a few questions..Just want to know for myself.

 

1. Who is the State Supervisor of officials and where is he from? What part of the State?

2. Who s the rep from tssaa that secretly goes and watches, how many games does he watch, and where is he from and what part of the state? Has it ever occured to anyone he could be picking officials that call games like they do in middle and east even if he is from the west? The reason I ask is because I didn't see any officials from the west that called some of the biggest games of the season.

3. What part of the state are you from and what are your thoughts on the style played in the west as opposed to middle and east tn? You have 25 years experience ..I wiuld just like to know your opinion.

4. Does each part of the state have a rep and if so do all three have equal say in who is picked for these games or does that responsibility rest soley with the power brokers in Nashville?

5. What's the total number of officials for the entire tournement and did each part of the state have an equal representation of 1/3 of the total.

6. What is the criteria of who calls what games....is it random or is their a process for determining who calls each game?

7. How much money do refs make calling substate and state games, and are the meals ad accomidations paid for by tssaa or out of the refs own pockets?

8. Are the officials evaluated for their work after the state is over? If so who evaluates them and is the evaluation by one person or a group represented by each part of the state with equal representation?

 

I just want to know for myself so I can check it out on my own. I'm not sure how all this works....but I will say this..each part of the state should be equal and have the same say in who calls these games..if they can't agree a compromise should be worked out.

[chuckm]

By rule, replay is not available for high school games. Use of video is not even allowable in high school athletics to determine those who may have been involved in a fight.

 

Anyway, replay would not have been available for the game in question. There was no television coverage and the replay boards in Murphy Center were only used beginning with the semifinals. Also, I do not believe that if replay had been available that the replay boards would have been usable. There must also be a clean picture of the clock superimposed on the video at all times, not one that is created graphically or included in graphics (i.e., ESPN's clock on its games would not be usable to determine time in replays).

 

 

The three was a three...But the clock should never have been put to 7 seconds....We were all thinking about 5.2....With the capability to use replay in that situation you should never get that wrong...Regular season is a different situation because you are not going to have the technology at every school....But when you get to the state level,you need to get things like that right....

[whistleblower]

I have a few questions..Just want to know for myself.

 

1. Who is the State Supervisor of officials and where is he from? What part of the State?

2. Who s the rep from tssaa that secretly goes and watches, how many games does he watch, and where is he from and what part of the state? Has it ever occured to anyone he could be picking officials that call games like they do in middle and east even if he is from the west? The reason I ask is because I didn't see any officials from the west that called some of the biggest games of the season.

3. What part of the state are you from and what are your thoughts on the style played in the west as opposed to middle and east tn? You have 25 years experience ..I wiuld just like to know your opinion.

4. Does each part of the state have a rep and if so do all three have equal say in who is picked for these games or does that responsibility rest soley with the power brokers in Nashville?

5. What's the total number of officials for the entire tournement and did each part of the state have an equal representation of 1/3 of the total.

6. What is the criteria of who calls what games....is it random or is their a process for determining who calls each game?

7. How much money do refs make calling substate and state games, and are the meals ad accomidations paid for by tssaa or out of the refs own pockets?

8. Are the officials evaluated for their work after the state is over? If so who evaluates them and is the evaluation by one person or a group represented by each part of the state with equal representation?

 

I just want to know for myself so I can check it out on my own. I'm not sure how all this works....but I will say this..each part of the state should be equal and have the same say in who calls these games..if they can't agree a compromise should be worked out.

 

 

 

Yankees8589, let me see if I can answer your questions.

1. Gene Menees is Asst. Exc. Director at TSSAA. He is in charge of Basketball for TSSAA. He is also in charge of officials for the State Tournament. He is from Nashville and his office is at the TSSAA office in Hermitage, TN.

 

2. As was mentioned earlier, each supervisor of each association submits a list of officials to Gene for consideration for the state tournament after Thanksgiving. Gene will travel the state observing the officials at ballgames. Also, he will watch tape sent to him of games involving those officials. He will watch someone several times, in person or on tape, if he feels they are ready for the state tournament. If he does not like the way someone is calling a game, they are taken off the list and he goes to the next ones. It is that simple. Many officials are 'watched' for several years before they are selected for the state tournament. They also have called several sub-state games and have been seen in camp by most of the supervisors across the state. There is an invitational camp that an official has to attend, recommended by a supervisor, before he/she is considered for the state.

 

3. The style of play is slightly different in parts of the state. It is still basketball and the officials selected to work the state tournament have seen different styles of play from the many ballgames they have worked that year and previous years. I'm sure the up-tempo style seen in Memphis is seen up in East TN by the officials at points of the season. Also, many of these guys also call college ball as well so they definately see it there.

 

4. Each supervisor from each association has some say about their officials. If the supervisor does not recommend them, Gene won't look at them. So yes, the association does have a say. The ultimate final decision rests with Gene Menees as for who works the state tournament in boys and girls. I definately would not call him a power broker. If you can call and have met the criteria up to that point, all is well. If not, your not!

 

5. There are 12 total officials selected to work the girl's tournament and 12 more to work the boy's tournament. Also, don't forget the Division II tournament, at Lipscomb. There are generally at least one from each association selected to work each tournament. Some bigger associations like Memphis, Nashville, and Chattanooga may send 2 to one tournament and 1 to each of the others. Some of the smaller associations may only get to send 1 official total to 1 of the 3 tournaments. It is definately a representation from all parts of the state for each tournament.

 

6. There are several criteria, from what I and others have gathered, for who Gene Menees selects to call a game in the state tournament. First and foremost, an official cannot call a game in which a team, from his area that he normally sees in the regular season, is playing. An example is an official from Memphis cannot call a game, at all, with a team from Memphis that he may see during the regular season. Also, each tournament is made up of officials who have worked the state tournament before and some who it is their first time. A balance of that is needed as well. You really don't want 3 first timers in a game together. The officials will call 1 or 2 games in a day, depending on schedules. It is pretty much random to see what fits well together for each day's matchup. The officals get their assignments the night before for the next day.

 

7. I believe for the sub-state games, the officials were paid $60.00 per game plus milege for travel. For the state tournament, they are paid about that much, maybe a few dollars more, each game, plus the TSSAA puts them up in a hotel for the week. They get a per-diem for meals each day as well. Remember, these people have regular jobs they have to take off of for at least Tuesday thru Saturday, as well as leaving families behind in many cases. The TSSAA takes care of them.

 

8. Each official is evaluated in each game of the tournament. Each morning of the tournament, they have a meeting and discuss any situations or plays that need to be talked about. The assignments made on Friday and Saturday are reflective of the officials' work on Wed and Thu. On Saturday, only 9 of 12 officals will work in the finals while the other 3 will be stand by officals. Just because an official works the single A game does not mean he was "7th, 8th, or 9th" best. It depends on the matchups and who works well together. Also, sitting up in the stands, are usually a group of supervisors who are taking their own notes on the officials and they are asked sometimes for their input.

 

It is a process! I can assure you that nobody is selected to work who has 'kissed butt' or anything like that. Quite simply, if you can call a game well, have experience, and have met the criteria, you have a good chance of going to the state tournament sometime in your lifetime. Again, it is due to merit and nothing more. It is an honor to get to go and you do not want to mess it up at all. People believe it is a conspiracy but it is not. When you get that far, everyone disagrees more with the calls made. It is part of the game! I firmly believe the TSSAA does not care who wins or loses a game at the State Tournament. Everything is done fair and justified along the way.

 

Hope this clears alot of the mess up!

[warmachine7954]

In the upper west Tn area Roger Shore is the supervisor. I know teams in 13A, 14A, 13AA, and probably more get these officials.

 

I know the officials are bad I coach in 14A and we get some rough ones.

 

But I also know they can't get many new people to do it, I have seen only a hand full of new officials in the past 5

years. It is a tough job and most people don;t do it because it isn't worth their time or money. Most officials get $55-75 a night for boys and girls. Most schools pay the minimum some extra, and they get food and drink at half time.

 

Officials half to buy there shoes, shirt, pants, wistle, and jacket. I think they get mileage but I think they may right it off on their taxes rather than get paid. On top of that they drive sometimes 100 mile round trips on week nights to get cursed at and threatened. Some places are tougher than others. I have refed some scrimmages and people cuss and yell at those. I have some tough skin so it's not so bad but think about 30-40 games in a season and it takes a toll.

 

Some of these better guys get called on to do college and don't come back after that.

I don't have a solution but before going nuts people should ask themselves if they could do it. Keep in mind many of these people are teachers, principals, fireman, policeman etc... when they are not officiating.