TSSAA OFFICIALS

[BEARCLAW]

/rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":rolleyes:" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" /> I've watched high school basketball in Morristown, Rutledge, Cocke Co, Sevier Co, Claiborne Co, Cumberland Gap, and most of the schools that existed before some of these were formed. I've seen basketball come from 6 ladies on the court and men who played with diginity and sportsmanship. I've also seen some really good officials in all these years, but have seen quite a change in them as well. Bob Pratt, Wimp McDaniel, Roy Noe, Lon Thornton just to name a few were all characters in their day. I always enjoyed watching them and interacting with them at the games when I was in high school and later on before they retired. Thanks guys. Back then it only took 2 officials to get the game underway and finished. Now we have 3 officials on the floor, unless one doesn't show up, and things have changed. What we usually see now is 2 good, or fairly good, officials and one who needs to go back to Upward Basketball. Everyone is going to miss calls from time to time, and we all expect that. But, when one official constantly makes bad calls, and often between the same two teams, and makes them one way, respect for the "Men In Stipes" begins to wane. I want to say up front a big THANK YOU to all you officials who get out there, care for the kids, do a little coaching for both teams on the floor when necessary, and in general keep things moving along as it should. You guys have a tough job without that "third leg" tripping you up. How about it TSSAA, can we get rid of all these "third legs" so things can get a little better for all the other officials. I'm not advocating going back to 2 officials, but getting a little more strict on these guys who wear the "stripes" and spend the game flirting with the lady players, cheerleaders, and ladies in the crowd. Think I'm making it up? Get out and watch what some of these clowns are doing! I don't mean to make life difficult for all of you.....just the opposite. I appreciate what most of you are doing. But let's get rid of all these "third legs" that are taking much of the fun and sport out of a wonderful game. Come on coaches and athletic directors! If all of you will start making the call on some of these Upward guys that somehow made it to high school ball, then maybe things would improve. Just my thinking. Again, thanks to all you "Men In Stripes" who are still making a difference. I salute you!

[FridayMainEvent]

/rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":rolleyes:" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" /> I've watched high school basketball in Morristown, Rutledge, Cocke Co, Sevier Co, Claiborne Co, Cumberland Gap, and most of the schools that existed before some of these were formed. I've seen basketball come from 6 ladies on the court and men who played with diginity and sportsmanship. I've also seen some really good officials in all these years, but have seen quite a change in them as well. Bob Pratt, Wimp McDaniel, Roy Noe, Lon Thornton just to name a few were all characters in their day. I always enjoyed watching them and interacting with them at the games when I was in high school and later on before they retired. Thanks guys. Back then it only took 2 officials to get the game underway and finished. Now we have 3 officials on the floor, unless one doesn't show up, and things have changed. What we usually see now is 2 good, or fairly good, officials and one who needs to go back to Upward Basketball. Everyone is going to miss calls from time to time, and we all expect that. But, when one official constantly makes bad calls, and often between the same two teams, and makes them one way, respect for the "Men In Stipes" begins to wane. I want to say up front a big THANK YOU to all you officials who get out there, care for the kids, do a little coaching for both teams on the floor when necessary, and in general keep things moving along as it should. You guys have a tough job without that "third leg" tripping you up. How about it TSSAA, can we get rid of all these "third legs" so things can get a little better for all the other officials. I'm not advocating going back to 2 officials, but getting a little more strict on these guys who wear the "stripes" and spend the game flirting with the lady players, cheerleaders, and ladies in the crowd. Think I'm making it up? Get out and watch what some of these clowns are doing! I don't mean to make life difficult for all of you.....just the opposite. I appreciate what most of you are doing. But let's get rid of all these "third legs" that are taking much of the fun and sport out of a wonderful game. Come on coaches and athletic directors! If all of you will start making the call on some of these Upward guys that somehow made it to high school ball, then maybe things would improve. Just my thinking. Again, thanks to all you "Men In Stripes" who are still making a difference. I salute you!

 

 

What a metaphoric post... /blush.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":blush:" border="0" alt="blush.gif" /> .. I haven't noticed any of the "third legs" making a stand. I think you meant to post this on the girls basketball thread.

[BeaverNTN]

Let's see if I understand what you are saying. You think we should keep three officials on the court, but make sure they are all veteran officials with lots of experience, so there is no question about the quality of the officiating. Then we should take all these "third legs" and throw them out of the association, or at least not let them work high school ball. Is that correct?

 

Let me ask you this. What happens in five years, or ten years when all these veteran officials decide to retire, and all we have left are these "third legs" who have no experience on a high school court? Do you think that would make the officiating better, or worse?

 

How about cutting these newer, younger officials a break? They are learning. They are getting experience. They might make some bad calls, or miss some calls, but I guarantee you that at half time, or after the game, the veteran officials they are working with are talking about it. They are teaching them things they could have done on specific plays. They are teaching them game management. The whole ride home from the game, they are talking about missed calls. These young guys don't need you beating them up. They are beating themselves up enough already. They are learning. These guys will be the veteran officials eventually that will be training the new "third legs" that you so often refer too.

 

Officiating is a brutal, unappreciated, underpaying job. If you think any of these guys are out doing it for the money, or the glory, or to flirt with the ladies in the crowd, I would say you are 99% wrong. And trust me, the 1% who are never make it more than a couple of seasons. So, to all the "third legs" who see this thread title and read the original post, don't worry. We have faith in you and your ability. Otherwise, you wouldn't be out there gaining the experience that you will need for the duration of your officiating career. Apparently, you would be working Upward basketball instead.

[DHSFB64]

/rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":rolleyes:" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" /> I've watched high school basketball in Morristown, Rutledge, Cocke Co, Sevier Co, Claiborne Co, Cumberland Gap, and most of the schools that existed before some of these were formed. I've seen basketball come from 6 ladies on the court and men who played with diginity and sportsmanship. I've also seen some really good officials in all these years, but have seen quite a change in them as well. Bob Pratt, Wimp McDaniel, Roy Noe, Lon Thornton just to name a few were all characters in their day. I always enjoyed watching them and interacting with them at the games when I was in high school and later on before they retired. Thanks guys. Back then it only took 2 officials to get the game underway and finished. Now we have 3 officials on the floor, unless one doesn't show up, and things have changed. What we usually see now is 2 good, or fairly good, officials and one who needs to go back to Upward Basketball. Everyone is going to miss calls from time to time, and we all expect that. But, when one official constantly makes bad calls, and often between the same two teams, and makes them one way, respect for the "Men In Stipes" begins to wane. I want to say up front a big THANK YOU to all you officials who get out there, care for the kids, do a little coaching for both teams on the floor when necessary, and in general keep things moving along as it should. You guys have a tough job without that "third leg" tripping you up. How about it TSSAA, can we get rid of all these "third legs" so things can get a little better for all the other officials. I'm not advocating going back to 2 officials, but getting a little more strict on these guys who wear the "stripes" and spend the game flirting with the lady players, cheerleaders, and ladies in the crowd. Think I'm making it up? Get out and watch what some of these clowns are doing! I don't mean to make life difficult for all of you.....just the opposite. I appreciate what most of you are doing. But let's get rid of all these "third legs" that are taking much of the fun and sport out of a wonderful game. Come on coaches and athletic directors! If all of you will start making the call on some of these Upward guys that somehow made it to high school ball, then maybe things would improve. Just my thinking. Again, thanks to all you "Men In Stripes" who are still making a difference. I salute you!

 

I CONCUR WITH YOU COMPETELY..ALWAYS SEEMS TO BE ONE WHO WANTS THE 'LIME' LIGHT GRAPPING ALL THE ATTENTION OF THE GAME FOR HIMSELF. !!

[BEARCLAW]

Let's see if I understand what you are saying. You think we should keep three officials on the court, but make sure they are all veteran officials with lots of experience, so there is no question about the quality of the officiating. Then we should take all these "third legs" and throw them out of the association, or at least not let them work high school ball. Is that correct?

 

Let me ask you this. What happens in five years, or ten years when all these veteran officials decide to retire, and all we have left are these "third legs" who have no experience on a high school court? Do you think that would make the officiating better, or worse?

 

How about cutting these newer, younger officials a break? They are learning. They are getting experience. They might make some bad calls, or miss some calls, but I guarantee you that at half time, or after the game, the veteran officials they are working with are talking about it. They are teaching them things they could have done on specific plays. They are teaching them game management. The whole ride home from the game, they are talking about missed calls. These young guys don't need you beating them up. They are beating themselves up enough already. They are learning. These guys will be the veteran officials eventually that will be training the new "third legs" that you so often refer too.

 

Officiating is a brutal, unappreciated, underpaying job. If you think any of these guys are out doing it for the money, or the glory, or to flirt with the ladies in the crowd, I would say you are 99% wrong. And trust me, the 1% who are never make it more than a couple of seasons. So, to all the "third legs" who see this thread title and read the original post, don't worry. We have faith in you and your ability. Otherwise, you wouldn't be out there gaining the experience that you will need for the duration of your officiating career. Apparently, you would be working Upward basketball instead.

 

 

How about dropping back and reading the entire post again. You've made an assumption that is absolutely not there! Did I not state almost exactly what you have said in reply to support the officials? The "third leg's" I am refering to is those officials who have no business being on the court or around high school kids......the girls especially. Please, next time your reply, read and reread the post before you make comments. I totally support our officials, but only an idiot would say there are some who need to go.

 

 

What a metaphoric post... /blush.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":blush:" border="0" alt="blush.gif" /> .. I haven't noticed any of the "third legs" making a stand. I think you meant to post this on the girls basketball thread.

 

 

At least read the post, or learn to read one or the other.

[BeaverNTN]

What we usually see now is 2 good, or fairly good, officials and one who needs to go back to Upward Basketball. Everyone is going to miss calls from time to time, and we all expect that. But, when one official constantly makes bad calls, and often between the same two teams, and makes them one way, respect for the "Men In Stipes" begins to wane. I want to say up front a big THANK YOU to all you officials who get out there, care for the kids, do a little coaching for both teams on the floor when necessary, and in general keep things moving along as it should. You guys have a tough job without that "third leg" tripping you up. How about it TSSAA, can we get rid of all these "third legs" so things can get a little better for all the other officials.

 

...But let's get rid of all these "third legs" that are taking much of the fun and sport out of a wonderful game. Come on coaches and athletic directors! If all of you will start making the call on some of these Upward guys that somehow made it to high school ball, then maybe things would improve.

 

 

I'm pretty sure I read that correctly, and I stand behind my comments. If I misunderstood something, please feel free to clarify it for me.

[clemlawn]

I apprecite the post. The game has changed alot over the years and most of the changes have been good. I too played back long ago, late 70's. You had to raise your hand when you got a foul called on you or you could get a T. Now adays kids cuss pull there shirts out or do whatever they want usually with no negative consequences. Players want to get the close calls to go there way, but they disrespect the guys who make the decisions. There a lot of calls in a game that could go either way. If you dont think referrees are influenced some by the way they are treated, you are not realistic. They are human. Players need to respect the officials and the officials should respect the players ,coaches and fans. Every close call is going to make 1 side of the fans angry. I think the need for the 3rd ref is because the game is faster now and more exciting.

[ballbasher30]

the problem is not that young officials do not need to work varsity games. the problem is disciplining the refs who make the same mistakes over and over or who do not belong period. i have seen some outstanding young refs and some very poor veteran refs and vice versa this year.

 

here is a solution: hold the refs accountable for their actions. and i don't mean not letting them ref a post season tournament because they got bad marks. i am talking about suspensions for failing to know the rules, inappropriate actions like the post before stated. if a ref conitues to make these types of mistakes and instead of a talking to they get hit in the wallet by not being assigned games they may shape up and learn to be a good ref.

 

case in point: on monday in a boys varisty game, a coach complained that the ref at half court was not swinging his arm to get a five second count. when the coach asked him why he was not counting the ref replied " your player was too close and put his forearm on the player". so why not call a foul and let the defensive player know he can't do that instead of doing nothing and getting into an argument with a coach? this was a ref that has been around for about 6 years now.

 

the other problem i see is the refs talk to much and this gets them in trouble: you are paid to call the game, not to conversate with every one in the gym during the game. i know good refs will talk to players and coaches during the game to explain things and such which i think is great. but some don't know when to shut up and allow coaches to talk them into saying something incredible dumb and wrong and then get mad at the coach for pointing this out.

 

case in point: a saw a girl driblling down the baseline with a defender all over her. the girl extended her arm and pushed off and got called for an offensive foul. the coach asked the ref what did she do and he said pushed off. the coach said to the ref that if the girl was not riding her all the way down the baseline she would not have to push off. the ref responded that the defender was no where near the girl, so the coach asked how did his girl push off if the girl was no where near her thus getting a tech from the ref beacuse the ref got mad that he said something stupid and it was pointed out.

 

i could go on and on but won't. my point has been made.

[T2S2A]

the problem is not that young officials do not need to work varsity games. the problem is disciplining the refs who make the same mistakes over and over or who do not belong period. i have seen some outstanding young refs and some very poor veteran refs and vice versa this year.

 

here is a solution: hold the refs accountable for their actions. and i don't mean not letting them ref a post season tournament because they got bad marks. i am talking about suspensions for failing to know the rules, inappropriate actions like the post before stated. if a ref conitues to make these types of mistakes and instead of a talking to they get hit in the wallet by not being assigned games they may shape up and learn to be a good ref.

 

case in point: on monday in a boys varisty game, a coach complained that the ref at half court was not swinging his arm to get a five second count. when the coach asked him why he was not counting the ref replied " your player was too close and put his forearm on the player". so why not call a foul and let the defensive player know he can't do that instead of doing nothing and getting into an argument with a coach? this was a ref that has been around for about 6 years now.

 

the other problem i see is the refs talk to much and this gets them in trouble: you are paid to call the game, not to conversate with every one in the gym during the game. i know good refs will talk to players and coaches during the game to explain things and such which i think is great. but some don't know when to shut up and allow coaches to talk them into saying something incredible dumb and wrong and then get mad at the coach for pointing this out.

 

case in point: a saw a girl driblling down the baseline with a defender all over her. the girl extended her arm and pushed off and got called for an offensive foul. the coach asked the ref what did she do and he said pushed off. the coach said to the ref that if the girl was not riding her all the way down the baseline she would not have to push off. the ref responded that the defender was no where near the girl, so the coach asked how did his girl push off if the girl was no where near her thus getting a tech from the ref beacuse the ref got mad that he said something stupid and it was pointed out.

 

i could go on and on but won't. my point has been made.

 

 

Great thought to suspend refs for not knowing rules or not getting plays correct, but then we would be playing games without refs. The biggest problem with the refereeing not only in the TSSAA is that there aren't enough to go around. You suspend a few officials for a night and you're now stretching to just fill the games, much less fill the games with quality officials. Just some numbers:

 

In one association: 36 high schools, 50 middle schools. Worse Case Scenerio each high school and each middle school hosts a game. That's 108 high school refs, and 100 middle school refs for a total of 208 people refereeing that night. Now that's a little exaggerated because I do not believe that there will ever be a time when every school hosts. A normal situation would be half of the schools hosting which is still 54 high school refs in one night if there are no middle school games going on. See where I'm going with this? It would be ideal to be able to dicipline these refs, but I don't think it would be realistic. They're always looking for people that know the game and can run a little bit.

[BeaverNTN]

Great thought to suspend refs for not knowing rules or not getting plays correct, but then we would be playing games without refs. The biggest problem with the refereeing not only in the TSSAA is that there aren't enough to go around. You suspend a few officials for a night and you're now stretching to just fill the games, much less fill the games with quality officials. Just some numbers:

 

In one association: 36 high schools, 50 middle schools. Worse Case Scenerio each high school and each middle school hosts a game. That's 108 high school refs, and 100 middle school refs for a total of 208 people refereeing that night. Now that's a little exaggerated because I do not believe that there will ever be a time when every school hosts. A normal situation would be half of the schools hosting which is still 54 high school refs in one night if there are no middle school games going on. See where I'm going with this? It would be ideal to be able to dicipline these refs, but I don't think it would be realistic. They're always looking for people that know the game and can run a little bit.

 

 

To add to this, do you discipline an official based on a coaches opinion of the way the game was called, or do you send an association supervisor to each and every game being played and let them decide who needs to be disciplined?

 

The problem with the first idea is that you will not get an unbiased opinion of the officiating from a coach, generally speaking. If he won, he isn't going to question anything about the game, generally speaking. If he lost, he is probably going to list the officiating as one of the reasons. This is a broad statement, and is definitely not true in all cases. The more experienced coaches will give a pretty fair assessment of officiating regardless of a win or a loss. These are usually the same coaches that aren't yelling at the referees the entire game.

 

The problem with the second approach is there simply isn't the manpower available to send a supervisor to every game. This is why veteran officials are on the floor with the newer guys. They can work with them, and in cases of major foul ups, you can guarantee they are reporting what they saw back to a supervisor.

 

My point is this. Officiating is not an exact science. There is a great deal of judgement involved. Some have it, some learn it, and the rest fall to the wayside eventually. The system is about as good as it can be. It will never be perfect, nor should anyone expect it to be. Guys have to learn the ropes somewhere, and if you think your team fell victim to a bad call by an new official, you are probably right. But most will learn from their mistakes on the car ride home and become a better official for it.

[BEARCLAW]

I'm pretty sure I read that correctly, and I stand behind my comments. If I misunderstood something, please feel free to clarify it for me.

 

 

Evidently you are one of the VERY inexperienced officials my post was aimed at. My post was in support of the officials doing the best job they can. It also was a call to arms to rid the courts of those clowns who should have been suspended at the beginning of the season for doing the same stupid things over and over and over and over..... From your tone and responses, I can only assume you are an official. I guess this is one of those times where should we be having this discussion on the court, I'd be the one getting the technical foul for pointing out changes that need to be made. Again to all those officials who are doing a good job, and are at least trying to be consistent, THANK YOU! But those BeaverNTN officials, why not take up knitting or something else that where your incompetence won't hurt an entire team because of your inabilities! Whoops! There goes the whistle, and here comes my T. Sure do hope he misses those two shots!

[BeaverNTN]

Evidently you are one of the VERY inexperienced officials my post was aimed at. My post was in support of the officials doing the best job they can. It also was a call to arms to rid the courts of those clowns who should have been suspended at the beginning of the season for doing the same stupid things over and over and over and over..... From your tone and responses, I can only assume you are an official. I guess this is one of those times where should we be having this discussion on the court, I'd be the one getting the technical foul for pointing out changes that need to be made. Again to all those officials who are doing a good job, and are at least trying to be consistent, THANK YOU! But those BeaverNTN officials, why not take up knitting or something else that where your incompetence won't hurt an entire team because of your inabilities! Whoops! There goes the whistle, and here comes my T. Sure do hope he misses those two shots!

 

 

Classic response from a class act. For some reason I thought a well thought out response to a valid question might make sense. Apparently I was wrong. I hope your post doesn't keep me from going back to the state tournament this year.