How much does a state title cost?

[texas23]

Thank you threeguyspop, finally got an answer with some substance. I'm right there with ya. As a dad of a child at Central High I can't bank on my son getting the best stuff, but if he wants to be the best I feel he can. Some money is obviously needed to have success due to the need of mats, shoes, weights, etc., but I don't feel better mats, shoes, weights, etc. have a direct correlation on success. The stuff that school's such as Cleveland have is nice, but not a necessity. I just think Cleveland is a perfect example in D1 of how money can't buy success. To stretch a bit more I also feel D1 schools have the same capability of beating the top D2 schools through hard work and believe it to be silly how Bradley refuses to wrestle D2 teams. But they make a good argument with the D2 teams being able to recruit and I respect their decision. Baylor may win on recruiting or hard work, but not through super facilites and I believe Cleveland is proving that today.

 

 

I guess I would have to disagree with your premise that Jones is trying to buy a championship. You cannot know that his motivation is exactly what you claim, to BUY a state trophy. Heck, his motivation could have been to put his Dad's name on the building as a tribute to him and that was the biggest factor in providing the funds for the facility. He certainly would like to see the Raiders achieve the top spot, but that does not mean he believes a wrestling building will bring that to Cleveland. So I do not think that Cleveland's lack of top placement in either the traditional or duals tournament is proving that super facility is a bad investment in the school.

 

I just wonder your motivation for positioning a question like this with Cleveland as an example. I have never heard those good folks at that school claim they would win even one extra match because they have a nice building.

[mikescott]

I guess I would have to disagree with your premise that Jones is trying to buy a championship. You cannot know that his motivation is exactly what you claim, to BUY a state trophy. Heck, his motivation could have been to put his Dad's name on the building as a tribute to him and that was the biggest factor in providing the funds for the facility. He certainly would like to see the Raiders achieve the top spot, but that does not mean he believes a wrestling building will bring that to Cleveland. So I do not think that Cleveland's lack of top placement in either the traditional or duals tournament is proving that super facility is a bad investment in the school.

 

I just wonder your motivation for positioning a question like this with Cleveland as an example. I have never heard those good folks at that school claim they would win even one extra match because they have a nice building.

I should have left Jones out of the original post, the question was not supposed to have anything to do with him. I'm not saying Cleveland is trying to buy a state title either, but of course their main wrestling related goal has to be to eventually win the state tournament. I'm just wondering on peoples thoughts concerning how money correlates into success. Cleveland is just an example I chose because of the extraordinary amount of money that is given to their team compared to other D1 teams.

[cchulk]

In a way, they did buy success. Cleveland fans, I don't mean this in a negative way, I mean it in an Im jealous way. They went from having trouble filling some wt classes about 8-10 years back to finishing 2nd in state since Jones started investing the team. Someone correct me if i am wrong. It definitely helps when you can have year round dedicated facilities, paid coaches at all levels, transportation, etc. I would love to provide this for my kids if I could. I could do a lot more with money like pay someone to run an elementary program in my area since I don't have the volunteers - it starts there. I could help poor kids go to camps, etc.

[DaisyMay]

I guess the biggest question that I have is, What constitutes success? Cleveland HS has taken home the State Runner-up trophy in the last SIX State Tournaments! That's not too shabby! I agree that Taj Mahal buildings don't assure success, however the Blue Raiders have been highly successful, both before it was built and after. Al Miller did it from a much smaller block building that sat on the same piece of land for many years. Many State Titles. However, that doesn't diminish what's going on over there now.

The next question is, What criteria are you using to determine that Cleveland's Staff is far superior to any other school in TN? Give us a comparative analysis as to how you reached this conclusion.

[mikescott]

I guess the biggest question that I have is, What constitutes success? Cleveland HS has taken home the State Runner-up trophy in the last SIX State Tournaments! That's not too shabby! I agree that Taj Mahal buildings don't assure success, however the Blue Raiders have been highly successful, both before it was built and after. Al Miller did it from a much smaller block building that sat on the same piece of land for many years. Many State Titles. However, that doesn't diminish what's going on over there now.

The next question is, What criteria are you using to determine that Cleveland's Staff is far superior to any other school in TN? Give us a comparative analysis as to how you reached this conclusion.

Cleveland has not taken home the runner-up trophy the past six tournaments. That would put them getting runnerup in 2004. The depth of coaches on the Cleveland coaching staff is unmatched by any program in D1 state in my opinion, can't back it up, but I'd say very few team's coaching staffs can even compare, and that is after just losing Eslinger and Hatcher. I'd love for my son to attend Cleveland for their facilities and coaching staff, but just can't do it. Success isn't just measured in state titles, in high school its definitely more about academic success and building character, but in terms of wrestling success a state title has to be the goal for a team like Cleveland. Runnerup finishes are great, but the ultimate goal of Cleveland has to be #1. And I'm sure Jones' motivation for spending as much as he has on the team isn't for buying a championship, but for building character and keeping kids out of trouble, etc. I know they have to want to get out of Bradley's shadow. Is the coaching staff just going to need more time to really build the program from the bottom(kids club) or what?

[DaisyMay]

Cleveland has not taken home the runner-up trophy the past six tournaments. That would put them getting runnerup in 2004. The depth of coaches on the Cleveland coaching staff is unmatched by any program in D1 state in my opinion, can't back it up, but I'd say very few team's coaching staffs can even compare, and that is after just losing Eslinger and Hatcher. I'd love for my son to attend Cleveland for their facilities and coaching staff, but just can't do it. Success isn't just measured in state titles, in high school its definitely more about academic success and building character, but in terms of wrestling success a state title has to be the goal for a team like Cleveland. Runnerup finishes are great, but the ultimate goal of Cleveland has to be #1. And I'm sure Jones' motivation for spending as much as he has on the team isn't for buying a championship, but for building character and keeping kids out of trouble, etc. I know they have to want to get out of Bradley's shadow. Is the coaching staff just going to need more time to really build the program from the bottom(kids club) or what?

[mikescott]

Is that you're way of agreeing with all that I posted DaisyMay?

[DaisyMay]

Ok, let's start with basic Wrestling 101. Two State Tournaments per year, STATE duals and STATE traditional tournaments. Now, the Blue Raiders were State Runner-up in the Duals in '08, '09 and '10. During those same years, they were State Runner-up in The Traditional Tournament, ('08, '09, '10. That would pretty much make the Cleveland Wrestling team State Runners-up in the LAST 6 STATE TOURNAMENTS !

While their staff are good guys and good Coaches, I still haven't heard what particulars put them so far ahead of the staffs of Baylor, McCallie, Bradley, Soddy, Father Ryan, etc. Do tell.

[mikescott]

Ok, let's start with basic Wrestling 101. Two State Tournaments per year, STATE duals and STATE traditional tournaments. Now, the Blue Raiders were State Runner-up in the Duals in '08, '09 and '10. During those same years, they were State Runner-up in The Traditional Tournament, ('08, '09, '10. That would pretty much make the Cleveland Wrestling team State Runners-up in the LAST 6 STATE TOURNAMENTS !

While their staff are good guys and good Coaches, I still haven't heard what particulars put them so far ahead of the staffs of Baylor, McCallie, Bradley, Soddy, Father Ryan, etc. Do tell.

Well I specifically stated D1. Soddy only has two coaches, Cleveland just recently stole a great assistant from them in Jake Yost. Bradley has a solid coaching staff also, but I see Cleveland having an edge in the coaching staff and a mighty edge in workout facilities. Before Eslinger and Hatcher left, Cleveland definitely had an edge on Bradley though. D2 teams have all kinds of money and can get several coaches, where D1 teams cannot. I know Baylor stole Soddy's coach in Shane Turner this past year. Soddy is going to have a rough year for sure. I don't even know the other guys name that helps Steve Henry. Your correct on two state tournys, but kind of found a loop hole I guess, but you are right on that.

[DaisyMay]

Quick knowledge check, Mike.

 

Since you are so "up" on your knowledge of local coaching staffs and their quality, quickly (like, now!) name the members of the Cleveland Coaching staff, then the Bradley Coaching staff. With your deep knowledge of all that you speak of, this should be up by about 11:15, right? And while you're at it, add a few of the credentials/backgrounds of these gentlemen would certainly back up your opinion.

Here's my bet: You CAN'T do it, because you have no idea. Now hurry and Google it, but remember, DETAILS will prove that you're not just a bag of hot air. I'll be waiting. Tick, tick, tick....

[mikescott]

Quick knowledge check, Mike.

 

Since you are so "up" on your knowledge of local coaching staffs and their quality, quickly (like, now!) name the members of the Cleveland Coaching staff, then the Bradley Coaching staff. With your deep knowledge of all that you speak of, this should be up by about 11:15, right? And while you're at it, add a few of the credentials/backgrounds of these gentlemen would certainly back up your opinion.

Here's my bet: You CAN'T do it, because you have no idea. Now hurry and Google it, but remember, DETAILS will prove that you're not just a bag of hot air. I'll be waiting. Tick, tick, tick....

Are you really going to try and say that Cleveland or Bradley do not have the best coaching staffs in that state? Bradley on one hand doesn't have a pimp that is supplying them with outrageous dollars, although they are supplied more money than other schools. I think Cleveland should have to be part of D2, all they'd have to do is learn how to recruit. Schools like Central are at a very drastic disadvantage when it comes to number of quality coaches, facilities, and community support. You are proving yourself to be very ignorant.

[DaisyMay]

Hey, Mike.

 

You just got teched! I wasn't trying to argue any point that you're trying to make. Don't really care about Alan Jones, Cleveland, Bradley or if you're really a Purple Pounder supporter. I just recognized (accurately) that you have a desire to have a strong opinion about everything on this board, and will say just about anything to back up that opinion, whether it is logical or based on any truth whatsoever. My point is correct. Call it a loophole if you want. It's called being informed and accurate. It's called the Truth. You should try to base your arguments on it. You'll probably still come off as abrasive, but at least it will be honest.