cougars130 Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 I have a question when your on the edge like that don't both feet have to stay in bounds to get the pin his left foot was out and his right foot was in I don't know I just remember that's how it use to be just like a takedown on the outside both feet must stay in to get the call.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbg Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 The fact that he bridged does not change his supporting parts. He is still in near fall critera thus his supporting parts are his shoulders NOT his feet. True! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweeptheleg Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 out of bounds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humphreyssm Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 OneBlindRef & TNKO2, Thanks for taking the time to pull what you believed were the relevant passages. However, the passage pulled by OneBlindRef does not cover the topic I asked for which was where the statement that once out of bounds the scapula were no longer supporting points and the feet became supporting points. This was the issue xbody was trying to bring to light and disagreed with the interpretation of. This section instead is focused on when it is proper to restart from that position assuming Wrestler A remains inbounds. The passage quoted by TNKO2 does specifically state that in this situation the scapula are the supporting points of the defensive wrestler and not the feet as was stated previously. Based on that interpretation it would seem that an out of bounds should have been called as it does appear that the offensive wrestler was out of bounds. These are the type of conversations that are worth having when all sides can be open to the possibility that either was wrong and allow the rulebook to help take out some of the subjectivity. As TNKO2 stated, you get to learn something here. Of course, I wouldn't expect most referees to necessarily get this right the first time in the heat of a match... that is difficult as many have already stated. Calls are made and in the long run you will find that they balance out either in the wrestler's individual career or through a coach's career. Of course it never feels that way at the time. All of that said, until more officials in the state of TN learn to adopt the learning approach it will be tough to continue to improve. It is important for all involved to be willing to sit down later and look at the call rationale and objectively to see if we can better ourselves from it. The officials should strive to learn how to call the situation better and the coaches should learn the nuances and how to review the situation during the match with the official to see if it can be broken down to a misapplication of a rule of it was truly a judgement call. I am hoping that was the intent of this conversation. To bring the situation to light so that everyone can be bettered by it and allow it to be called correctly per the intent of the rules the next time someone is in that situation. That was the EXACT intent on the post. It doesn't change the outcome of the match. Both boys are AWESOME wrestlers and had a very exciting match going! I truly appreciate all input recieved by everyone that posted. I'm simply a mother...I don't know all the rules, therfore...I have to ask. it's a mothers instinct to protect and defend her child, and I'll probably do this til the day I die. My son loves the sport and I do as well. thank you again for your responses. Stephanie Hancock 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humphreyssm Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Stephanie, I would ask you to let this manner go (at least in a public forum like this). People get on here just to put fuel to the fire sometimes and know how to toy with emotions. Personally I believe Trent was out of bounds from the perspective of the video...but from a referee's perspective (which many times can be a judgement call), it may have looked differently. The best thing I would say to Trent is don't get hammerlocked like that ever again and it won't matter what the referee's perspective is. Good luck at state! Coach Knepper Thank you Coach for the advice. Fortunately I'm not thinskinned and don't allow things posted on here to toy with my emotions. I needed an answer and had three different ones given to me before this post and none were accurate with what was in the rulebook. I learned a new rule today. see ya at State! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcpatriot Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 That was the EXACT intent on the post. It doesn't change the outcome of the match. Both boys are AWESOME wrestlers and had a very exciting match going! I truly appreciate all input recieved by everyone that posted. I'm simply a mother...I don't know all the rules, therfore...I have to ask. it's a mothers instinct to protect and defend her child, and I'll probably do this til the day I die. My son loves the sport and I do as well. thank you again for your responses. Stephanie Hancock Nicely handled mom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slingshot Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 As a wrestler, I don't know what have embarrassed me more... My mom getting on this public forum to complain about the officials or the fact that there is an accompanying video of me getting flattened, hammerlocked and pinned! uhhhh,..Thanks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humphreyssm Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 As a wrestler, I don't know what have embarrassed me more... My mom getting on this public forum to complain about the officials or the fact that there is an accompanying video of me getting flattened, hammerlocked and pinned! uhhhh,..Thanks? I didn't post the video, however..I had Trents permission before I posted anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TNKO2 Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) This person got it. I find it even more humorous that a coach in our region officiated an AAU tournament, walked off the mat and apologized to a couple of officials in our region after "walking the mile" in our shoes, for things he had said or done as a coach with us on the mat. There is not one official in this state that I know who walks onto the mat with the intention of throwing a match one way or the other. I do get frustrated at times with parents, fans and sometimes coaches who think that they are experts on the rule book but only have a general knowledge. While I do not claim to be perfect, my job is to protect the well being of the kids and enforce the intent and spirit of the rule book. Knowledge of the rule book is to me what the ability to teach is to a coach. This sport is not as popular as say football which makes some of the more intricate parts of the rule book very vague for the untrained. An example....a coach argues a defensive pin because his kid was in control when the book does not specify that a wrestler has to be in control to earn a pin. Those of us in the sport for any length of time will know this but someone with little knowledge will be convinced that his kid just got screwed. Actually TNSMOKEDIVER, even though the RuleBook isnt 100% spoken word on a defensive pin, RULE 5, SECTION 11, ART 1 states......A fall occurs when any part of both shoulder of scapula of EITHER WRESTLER are in contact with the mat for two seconds....... it does not quote DEFENSIVE ONLY but EITHER WRESTLER. Also, Coaches question alot,and think they know alot, but 99% of them have neither read the rule book or reffed before. And if you ask them to come to the seminars to do so they want no part of it. You have to have tough skin, be in good shape, and read your rules and case books throughly a few times a season to be a competent wrestling referee. Wrestling is by far the hardest sport to ref! Im sure the two referees that reffed that match, if they get wind of this forum, will watch the video, and learn from it. If officiating this sport were easy, everyone would do it. Edited February 14, 2012 by TNKO2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnsmokediver Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 That was the EXACT intent on the post. It doesn't change the outcome of the match. Both boys are AWESOME wrestlers and had a very exciting match going! I truly appreciate all input recieved by everyone that posted. I'm simply a mother...I don't know all the rules, therfore...I have to ask. it's a mothers instinct to protect and defend her child, and I'll probably do this til the day I die. My son loves the sport and I do as well. thank you again for your responses. Stephanie Hancock I will answer any question to the best of my ability when asked. However, this post started out with the bad mouthing of officials as seen below. This is not an attack on Steven Goldstein and I want to congradulate him on his victory. But, we had some sad officiating at the tournament. Three defensive pins were called this weekend alone. I would like to ask you, the people, to watch the video and respond to whether the wrestlers were out of bounds or not? Clearly, they were. I just want to highlight how terrible Region I officiating is. I most certainly dont want to take anything away from what Goldstien and Williams have accomplished, both have had great seasons. If you want a question answered, ask it. Starting out the conversation by telling the people who will most likely give you the answer that they suck at what they do will most likely lead to the conversation taking a downward spiral right out of the gate. That is much of what happened here. BTW, I called two of those defensive pins. Those were the easiest to call because they put their backs completely flat on the mat without having the other kids arms, hands a so forth in the way. Defensive pins are always a sore subject for some but still a part of the sport no matter how controversial. A few years ago the number 1 seed in Region I pinned himself in the first round of the tournament. (I called that match as well.) As stated earlier, if this job was easy, everyone would be doing it. I have just returned from a deployment in early January and all I thought about was getting back near a wrestling mat for the last two months I spent in country. Even with all the sneering, heckling and pissed off parents, I loved being back to do the one thing I love more than anything, being around wrestling. I will continue to put on my gray shirt and occupy the best seat in the house for the most awesome sport on the planet knowing that not everyone will be happy about the result at the end of the day. Being upset, mad and so forth shows that these people have passion for the sport and that's what makes wrestling so great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnsmokediver Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Actually TNSMOKEDIVER, even though the RuleBook isnt 100% spoken word on a defensive pin, RULE 5, SECTION 11, ART 1 states......A fall occurs when any part of both shoulder of scapula of EITHER WRESTLER are in contact with the mat for two seconds....... it does not quote DEFENSIVE ONLY but EITHER WRESTLER. This is exactly the point I was making. I have had some coaches argue that a wrestler had to be in control in order to earn a pin. I have quoted that to many coaches at the table. I had one read it and still argue the point after reading the words "either wrestler" out loud at the table. We use the term defensive pin as wrestling jargon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TNKO2 Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) This is exactly the point I was making. I have had some coaches argue that a wrestler had to be in control in order to earn a pin. I have quoted that to many coaches at the table. I had one read it and still argue the point after reading the words "either wrestler" out loud at the table. We use the term defensive pin as wrestling jargon. sorry tnsmokediver, not knowing that you were a ref, Im sure that you already knew that section of the rulebook, but somehow it still seems gray to many coaches when quoting that rule in the book to them by the table. maybe the more correct quote would be... "if reffing wrestling were easy...MORE people would be doing it"....because not all can. It really isnt an easy job. Edited February 14, 2012 by TNKO2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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