Umpiring Question

[FridayMainEvent]

<br />I've only seen a coach bring a rulebook out on the field once, and he was promptly confined to the dugout. I would do the exact same thing if I was presented with that situation. By bringing a rulebook out on the field, you are not only underminding his athority over the game (which once the first pitch is thrown, he has COMPLETE athority over the game), but you are showing him up in front of his partner, both teams, and the fans. If an umpire went out of his way to show up a coach, he gets berated by fans at the game, chastised on message boards like this, and gets reported to the TSSAA. But (from what your saying) its ok for a coach to show up an umpire? Its a two way street..<br /><br />Have the rulebook in the dugout. Memorize it word for word and then go out there and recite it for me. I have absolutely no problem with that. But do not bring the rulebook on the field.<br />

 

In my opinion, that's the whole problem... You guys are more worried about "getting showed up" than about getting the call right.. Let's say I have the entire rulebook memorized. I go out to the field and tell you "I have no doubt what the rule states and your ruling was incorrect. Trust me, I've memorized the rulebook." That's going to make you correct the call? Ofcourse not. When you miss a call simply because you (or whomever the ump is)doesn't know the correct ruling, you ARE NOT going to take my word on it. I coached for 20 years everything from baseball, to softball, to soccer and have pulled a rulebook out twice in all that time. Both instances were when a jerk of an umpire made a horrible call that DID effect the outcome of a game and I knew without a shadow of doubt he was wrong! Those guys who have the attitude that they are NEVER wrong and should never be questioned ARE the problem.. We all make mistakes and you guys aren't above that.

 

To the guy who threw out the scenereo of a "coaching handbook" please?? Nobody is calling into question your judgement. Telling a kid to steal or not is a judgement call. We are calling into question your knowledge of the rules your paid to enforce. Quit acting like a felt up high school date and grow up. If your wrong, admit your wrong. Change the call and carry on. If I don't agree with your strike zone or whether a kid was out or safe at first, shame on me for challenging you. If you don't know the rules, be prepared to answer for your mistakes. Don't hide behind the mask and say "It's my ballfield! Don't challenge me!"

[brettjwhaley]

If U3 signaled the ball foul by both voice and mechanic, then it is a foul ball. There is no changing that according to the NFHS rulebook. However, the head coach can elect to play the game under protest, so the blame has to be shared somewhat. If the coach knows the rules, he use it to his advantage.

 

There seems to also be a misunderstanding of the designation of crew chief/Umpire-In-Chief. In any crew, the home plate umpire serves as the umpire-in-chief, meaning he assumes administrative control of the game by keeping lineup cards and communicating with coaches throughout the game on field conditions, crowd control, or field issues that crop up. He does not have the authority to overrule another umpire as each umpire has concurrent jurisdiction on the field. Normally, the more senior umpire would serve as a crew chief in the sense that he will contact the coach in case of inclement weather and coordinate the crews arrival and departure from the game site. He does not have the authority to overrule another umpire.

 

You reference the entire crew getting together to discuss the situation. This is a situation where the crew would confer on rules interpretation. It seems that this did not help as they still got the initial call incorrect. This is proper procedure when rules situations come up and the calling umpire is not clear on how to properly apply a rule. On the balk, this also seems to be a misinterpretation. The batter can never cause a balk by leaving the box, holding up his hand, saying time, or discern in other ways. However, without seeing it I cannot be certain on this ruling.

 

If a coach brings a rule book on the field, I will immediately confine him to the dugout. There are very specific actions that violate the rules and these are covered in the rule book the coach is holding in his hand. Now, that being said, you are unlikely to catch me in a situation where I do not know the rule. I expect the same from a coach.

 

Many of you feel the need to bash umpires. Remember this when doing so, I have no interest in who wins or loses. I have no interest in little Johnny getting a hit or making outs. I have no interest in making everyone happy. It is not my job to make sure everyone is happy. If it were that way, there would be no umpires, catchers would call balls and strikes, 1st basemen would call bang-bang plays at 1st, and outfielders would call shoestring catches. The problem is that you need someone to whom the outcome means nothing to arbitrate the game. I do this not for the money, but because I love baseball. I guarantee you the $65 dollars we make for that game is not nearly worth what we go through be we do it because we love the game. I do it with an understanding that I am hated 100% of the time, by 50% of the people. In the end, I only have myself to please with my performance. trust me when I say this, it hurts when you miss a call. I hate the feeling I get, but to the untrained eye we miss any more than in reality. You always want things to go your teams way, but I only call what I see because it takes way too much effort to make something up. I am trained to react not think and that is what keeps me from favoring a team. That is not to say we are not human, I make mistakes, just not as many as most of you think I do. Remember these things when you are yelling at a guy who spends his spare time trying to get better at a thankless job.

[FridayMainEvent]

<br />I've only seen a coach bring a rulebook out on the field once, and he was promptly confined to the dugout. I would do the exact same thing if I was presented with that situation. By bringing a rulebook out on the field, you are not only underminding his athority over the game (which once the first pitch is thrown, he has COMPLETE athority over the game), but you are showing him up in front of his partner, both teams, and the fans. If an umpire went out of his way to show up a coach, he gets berated by fans at the game, chastised on message boards like this, and gets reported to the TSSAA. But (from what your saying) its ok for a coach to show up an umpire? Its a two way street..<br /><br />Have the rulebook in the dugout. Memorize it word for word and then go out there and recite it for me. I have absolutely no problem with that. But do not bring the rulebook on the field.<br />

 

Oh, and you definitely should change your attitude. He isn't going out there to "SHOW YOU UP". I'm not a freakin 10 year old. If I go out there with a rulebook, it's because you really goofed up and I'm backing my kids. It aint about you or you "feelings", it's about the kids and when a season is cut short or a team is sent home from a tournament early because you blew it, that's far worse than "showing you up"!

[riverdaleman]

If U3 signaled the ball foul by both voice and mechanic, then it is a foul ball. There is no changing that according to the NFHS rulebook. However, the head coach can elect to play the game under protest, so the blame has to be shared somewhat. If the coach knows the rules, he use it to his advantage.

 

There seems to also be a misunderstanding of the designation of crew chief/Umpire-In-Chief. In any crew, the home plate umpire serves as the umpire-in-chief, meaning he assumes administrative control of the game by keeping lineup cards and communicating with coaches throughout the game on field conditions, crowd control, or field issues that crop up. He does not have the authority to overrule another umpire as each umpire has concurrent jurisdiction on the field. Normally, the more senior umpire would serve as a crew chief in the sense that he will contact the coach in case of inclement weather and coordinate the crews arrival and departure from the game site. He does not have the authority to overrule another umpire.

 

You reference the entire crew getting together to discuss the situation. This is a situation where the crew would confer on rules interpretation. It seems that this did not help as they still got the initial call incorrect. This is proper procedure when rules situations come up and the calling umpire is not clear on how to properly apply a rule. On the balk, this also seems to be a misinterpretation. The batter can never cause a balk by leaving the box, holding up his hand, saying time, or discern in other ways. However, without seeing it I cannot be certain on this ruling.

 

If a coach brings a rule book on the field, I will immediately confine him to the dugout. There are very specific actions that violate the rules and these are covered in the rule book the coach is holding in his hand. Now, that being said, you are unlikely to catch me in a situation where I do not know the rule. I expect the same from a coach.

 

Many of you feel the need to bash umpires. Remember this when doing so, I have no interest in who wins or loses. I have no interest in little Johnny getting a hit or making outs. I have no interest in making everyone happy. It is not my job to make sure everyone is happy. If it were that way, there would be no umpires, catchers would call balls and strikes, 1st basemen would call bang-bang plays at 1st, and outfielders would call shoestring catches. The problem is that you need someone to whom the outcome means nothing to arbitrate the game. I do this not for the money, but because I love baseball. I guarantee you the $65 dollars we make for that game is not nearly worth what we go through be we do it because we love the game. I do it with an understanding that I am hated 100% of the time, by 50% of the people. In the end, I only have myself to please with my performance. trust me when I say this, it hurts when you miss a call. I hate the feeling I get, but to the untrained eye we miss any more than in reality. You always want things to go your teams way, but I only call what I see because it takes way too much effort to make something up. I am trained to react not think and that is what keeps me from favoring a team. That is not to say we are not human, I make mistakes, just not as many as most of you think I do. Remember these things when you are yelling at a guy who spends his spare time trying to get better at a thankless job.

nice post Brett...but we actually do get thanked more than we get yelled at

[crazzyness]

Oh, and you definitely should change your attitude. He isn't going out there to "SHOW YOU UP". I'm not a freakin 10 year old. If I go out there with a rulebook, it's because you really goofed up and I'm backing my kids. It aint about you or you "feelings", it's about the kids and when a season is cut short or a team is sent home from a tournament early because you blew it, that's far worse than "showing you up"!

Sir, I believe my attitude is fine. You are the one getting on here, kicking up a fuss about horrible officials on multiple threads.

 

The question was asked what would happen if a coach brought a rule book on to the field, what would happen. And I answered that question. If you don't like the answer, that's your right.

 

There are certain things you just DO NOT do. You DO NOT argue balls and strikes. Assistant coaches DO NOT argue or question calls. And you DO NOT bring a rule book on to the field. You might very well be correct in all three cases, but you just DO NOT do it. Just like umpires DO NOT mouth off to fans or parents who think they know the rules but don't have a clue, and players DO NOT question a horrible call or action by a coach. In each case, the questioning party may very well be correct, but you just don't do it.

 

Now let me make very clear, AGAIN, I have no problem at all with a coach coming out and civilly questioning a call or an interprtation of a rule. If I am not 100% sure beyond a shadow of a doubt, I will call my partner in and discuss it. And I have no problem reversing a reversable ruling I have made if I was incorrect. I want to make that very clear, just so you understand. What I don't want is for a coach to strut out on the field like a banty rooster, waving a rule book around in his hand, pretty much saying "you f*cked up, I can proove it, and I want EVERYONE in the stadium to know." There is a much better and more profesional way to go about it.

 

Now if you think that I am not worried about the kids and just worried about my own image or ego, you a mistaking. I HATE when I blow a call. It makes me sick to my stomach. But I have to forget about it best I can and move one, because it IS going to happen from time to time. We make mistakes too.. I've booted ball/strike calls and knew it and apologized to the catcher in between batters. I've booted bang-bang plays at first and knew it and fessed up and apologized to the coach after the game. I've lost sleep at night one time after a game ending interference call on a double play. Cost that particular team the regular season title. I ended up having to call another umpire at 1230 in the morning and discussing it for 20 minutes and coming to the conclusion that it WAS the right call after all before I could sleep that night. Don't think that umpires are heartless and self indulged. But with that in mind, we do have to keep control of the game, and in some cases that means having to piss a few people off. Like someone said a few posts ago, 100% of the time, 50% of people won't like you.

 

So I apologize if I rubbed off on you the wrong way earlier, but I was just giving you my .02 worth about the situation that was presented.

Edited May 30, 2012 by crazzyness

[cocheese]

I would be more than happy to post phone numbers of local umpire association's assigners if any one of you is game??? I can no longer umpire myself, due to my job, but I'm certain you're wanted and needed. It's easy guys, just go out there and yell ball or strike and safe or out, nothing else to it. The situation that started this thread is a very uncommon one, I would hope. It's hard to imagine umpires, that an assigner would give a post-season game to, blowing an easy no brainer call like this. I wasn't there and who knows if this is the complete and true scenario. Baseball stories are a lot like fishing stories. But I am 100% positive of one thing; these umpires are probably still losing sleep for blowing two easy, no brainers like these.

 

It amazes me how the baseball field and it's atmosphere can mirror today's society so closely.

Edited May 30, 2012 by cocheese

[FridayMainEvent]

<br />Sir, I believe my attitude is fine. You are the one getting on here, kicking up a fuss about horrible officials on multiple threads.<br /><br />The question was asked what would happen if a coach brought a rule book on to the field, what would happen. And I answered that question. If you don't like the answer, that's your right.<br /><br />There are certain things you just DO NOT do. You DO NOT argue balls and strikes. Assistant coaches DO NOT argue or question calls. And you DO NOT bring a rule book on to the field. You might very well be correct in all three cases, but you just DO NOT do it. Just like umpires DO NOT mouth off to fans or parents who think they know the rules but don't have a clue, and players DO NOT question a horrible call or action by a coach. In each case, the questioning party may very well be correct, but you just don't do it.<br /><br />Now let me make very clear, AGAIN, I have no problem at all with a coach coming out and civilly questioning a call or an interprtation of a rule. If I am not 100% sure beyond a shadow of a doubt, I will call my partner in and discuss it. And I have no problem reversing a reversable ruling I have made if I was incorrect. I want to make that very clear, just so you understand. What I don't want is for a coach to strut out on the field like a banty rooster, waving a rule book around in his hand, pretty much saying &quot;you f*cked up, I can proove it, and I want EVERYONE in the stadium to know.&quot; There is a much better and more profesional way to go about it. <br /><br />Now if you think that I am not worried about the kids and just worried about my own image or ego, you a mistaking. I HATE when I blow a call. It makes me sick to my stomach. But I have to forget about it best I can and move one, because it IS going to happen from time to time. We make mistakes too.. I've booted ball/strike calls and knew it and apologized to the catcher in between batters. I've booted bang-bang plays at first and knew it and fessed up and apologized to the coach after the game. I've lost sleep at night one time after a game ending interference call on a double play. Cost that particular team the regular season title. I ended up having to call another umpire at 1230 in the morning and discussing it for 20 minutes and coming to the conclusion that it WAS the right call after all before I could sleep that night. Don't think that umpires are heartless and self indulged. But with that in mind, we do have to keep control of the game, and in some cases that means having to piss a few people off. Like someone said a few posts ago, 100% of the time, 50% of people won't like you.<br /><br />So I apologize if I rubbed off on you the wrong way earlier, but I was just giving you my .02 worth about the situation that was presented.<br />

<br /><br />No need to apologize.   We view this subject differently.  That happens on message boards.  I have an umpiring friend in tullahoma who has asked me about getting into it now that my kids are grown.  If I happen to make an incorrect call because I had a rule violation that I missed, I don't have a problem with someone correcting me and I'd prefer proof I'm incorrect.  (Provided none of my crew is clear on a rule)  I'll have a much shorter tolerance when my judgement is called into question. Edited May 30, 2012 by FreeAgent11

[ibball44]

I would be more than happy to post phone numbers of local umpire association's assigners if any one of you is game??? I can no longer umpire myself, due to my job, but I'm certain you're wanted and needed. It's easy guys, just go out there and yell ball or strike and safe or out, nothing else to it. The situation that started this thread is a very uncommon one, I would hope. It's hard to imagine umpires, that an assigner would give a post-season game to, blowing an easy no brainer call like this. I wasn't there and who knows if this is the complete and true scenario. Baseball stories are a lot like fishing stories. But I am 100% positive of one thing; these umpires are probably still losing sleep for blowing two easy, no brainers like these.

 

It amazes me how the baseball field and it's atmosphere can mirror today's society so closely.

I started this thread, and at the time all of this happened, I was standing 15 feet from home plate looking directly down the third base line. As I said in my first post, "From that angle it looked like the ball crossed directly over the bag before going into foul terrotory, and thus, SHOULD have been called a fair ball. The problem is the umpire whose call it was screams "foul ball" and waves it foul. " It happened exactly as I said it happened, and this is no "fishing story." I thought the home plate umpire got the foul ball call right, but his partner down the line called it foul. Now, the balk call is a different story......

Edited May 30, 2012 by ibball44

[swanson71]

In the Notre Dame-Livingston Academy game, the score is tied 2-2 in the 8th. We have three umpires handling this game. One is stationed down the third base line about ten feet from the bag. Livingston Academy's batter hits a grounder down the left field line, and the third base umpire screams "foul ball" and waves his arms indicating the ball was foul. The home plate umpire points fair, but does not say anything. Notre Dame's left fielder, hearing "foul ball" does not play the ball. Livingston Academy runner takes second. Home plate umpire and third base umpire converse. Then they call over the first base umpire who had no angle whatsoever. They then say that the ball was fair and the runner remains at second. He, of course, scored the winning run on a balk. Thoughts?

I just now this...sounds like the pitcher shouldn't have balked

[ibball44]

I just now this...sounds like the pitcher shouldn't have balked

The balk as called was not a balk under the NFHS rules as discussed at length above.

[TNirishfan]

For the poster who said the coach has the option of playing the game under protest..not in TN nor in most states per NF rules. Decision must be reached before the next legal pitch.

[CoachG24]

Dead Ball