Baylor v McCallie ending

[Sommers]

Then I would suggest you just relax, stupidsign & enjoy the rest of the season. No dog in the fight here.

 

To settle the 10 pt swing,,, We need a YouTube segment of that crank & hammer

[ghouse]

Thank you for correcting us all again and gracing us with your infinite knowledge. After reading through all the posts it appears your sidekick ghouse twisted the words of a parent to fit his own agenda. I do not believe it was ever said the wrestler wasnt medically cleared to wrestle. I would think the Baylor staff, the wrestler or his parents wouldnt put him out there if they werent all ok with it. You want to call people on whats wrong but you dont like it when people point out all your own faults and inability to correct them. As far as the move in question you are losing all credibilty. I was standing at the top of the Baylor section and saw the chicken wing/ arm bar clearly as I was right in line with it. I yelled out along with about 50 Baylor parents, coaches and wrestlers at the exact same time the ref deemed it neccesarry to stop the match and award a point. Do you honestly think this was a well orchestrated pre-planned maneuver by that many people to gain an advantage? Could it be possible that you and ghouse couldnt see it from your angle on the rail where you were standing on the opposite side of the wrestlers? Maybe it was a distorted view for ghouse since he was jumping up and down like a girl at a Justin Beiber concert the entire match.

 

I twisted no words in what I said… pretty sure I used exact quotes. Did I have an agenda? Of course, I did… everyone that comes on here to make a point has an agenda. My agenda was simply to voice my opinion on the issue. I could care less if it affects any change or anyone else takes it to heart. I never stated he wasn’t medically cleared as it wasn’t put in writing on this message board. The things I used as the basis of my argument were written on this board by a knowledgeable Baylor insider (someone who holds a similar role in the Baylor program as I do for CBHS, not just a parent). The not medically cleared was stated to smwwrest by a knowledgeable insider at the duals but I don’t use things said in private conversation as that could affect trust levels with the people I actually care about.

 

I still stand by my opinion as it is supported by the argument I made before. The part that bothers me is that the Baylor staff was okay putting a wrestler out there who hadn’t practiced live in nearly two months. If those facts are incorrect then my opinion might change but if those facts are correct I will gladly stand by my assertions. The beautiful thing about opinions is that we all get to have one and share one. The reasons I feel free to give my opinion is that 1) I would hope others would call me out if I made a similar mistake because my first concern as an adult is for the kids, 2) I will gladly correct any unsportsmanlike, etc. mistakes made by any of my wrestlers in private as is befitting a kid and 3) I will back up my opinion with facts or my own interpretations. I don’t form an opinion without some solid reasoning.

 

Now, let’s talk about the move in question. I will answer a couple of statements made by you:

1) There is no way I would have made the statements I made given the view I had from live during the match. As I stated during my initial post I waited until I could review our team video that does show an appropriate angle and is shot from within about 10 feet of the mat. Likely a better vantage point than any fan in the arena had. Only person with better was the official.

2) I feel very confident that there was no pressure parallel to the long axis of the body… the top wrestler was driving at a perpendicular angle.

3) No conspiracy, just a wrong call by an official… lord knows nobody is infallible and calls will be missed. In my opinion, it definitely should have been stopped and called potentially dangerous to protect the health of the wrestler due to the pressure on the shoulder from the half. Never seen a half called illegal in that situation.

4) No “well orchestrated pre-planned maneuver†just a situation that never should have occurred. I agree with the Baylor coaching staff pulling the wrestler when they did given the details we know about his injury and state of physical condition… he just never should have been put in that situation in my opinion. That is a totally separate issue from the legality of the hold. You may choose to agree or disagree with that

 

Oh and thanks for the laugh about my jumping up and down. Certainly an interesting attempt at a personal insult. There is little doubt that I find wrestling an exciting sport just by itself. When you add to it the mix of emotions that go along with watching kids you have helped train and coached through competition the excitement is certainly there. I doubt that will ever change for me. I am particularly able to enjoy the excitement at the high school events because I don’t have the stress of sitting in the coach’s corner and can enjoy seeing kids I care about (from many teams) compete. In the long run I just take my own excitement as an outward extension of how much I care about the sport and kids. Sorry if that bothers you like being at a Justin Beiber concert might bother me.

 

Last post as I have to get back to work. The life of the common man is rough sometimes. I will leave all you dii people to fight your own battles. You seem to be missing the point. The point is cbhs and ghouse or smwrest are not the moral police or gods of the Tennessee wrestling world. Its not your place to question other people or write essays proving you are better or smarter than everyone else. This whole post was about Baylor vs McCallie but yet ghouse wants to interject and somehow say the Baylor program and its coaches are not of his standard. Well, thats his opinion but Im not sure what he's basing it on or why he would think anyone would care what he thinks. I think if you took a poll most would put Baylors, Father Ryan, McCallie and all the other dii schools standards and actions much higher than those of Cbhs. Thats my opinion anyway based on how I see the wrestlers conduct themselves and what I hear the dii people saying. Nobody put a young man at risk. You are basing that on a parents post that you twisted around. As far as throwing rocks, you opened that door and thats exactly why I responded. I never mentioned a single name only actions of wrestlers. I think the two wrestlers you mentioned are the best two wrestlers in the state. I was using that as an example of how maybe you shouldn't throw stones though when you have your own issues. As far as the one being kicked out I have only seen him wrestle a few times the last two years at the Cleveland duals but in two of the instances he was called for illegal/unnecessary roughness. Neither of the matches were close or contested as he was clearly the better wrestler and much more physically developed. I don't need to watch Iowa wrestling as you advised. This is not Iowa wrestling. There is a difference in wrestling in College and wrestling a 14-15 year old freshman you are clearly better than and just cross facing him hard for no reason. As far as the taunting on the mat there is no excuse for that and I love how you have never acknowledged that. You bring up them staying after practice or you bring up a match with Father Ryan and how he head butted your kid. You cant divert attention away from the issues at hand no matter how hard you try. There is a difference in wrestling tough and physical and doing things you shouldn't. Kids will be kids, they all come from different backgrounds and have different personalities and we all know that. But when you have things you really need to fix maybe you shouldn't point out what you think other peoples or programs faults are or say you dont respect them based on your faulty view of the circumstances. When you do that you open the door for people to express why they dont respect you. Thats what was done here and obviously it touched a nerve. Decipher, distort, and twist my words around all you want . Post until the cows come home but I have said all I have to say to you smwwrstling and ghouse. By the way I think most would agree Cleveland is the best program in the state. Not only by the scores but the way their wrestlers and fans conduct themselves.

 

The whole fun part of being on a message board is we get to write about what we want… I admit I am an odd on who tends to write more than others because I like to layout facts or the reasoning behind my opinion… guess that is just the engineer in me.

The fun part about it all is that what people choose to do with my opinions matters very little to me. You can choose to agree, disagree, argue, tell me to shut up, or just ignore it. Those things have very little effect on me or the wrestling world… much the same as my posts for others.

 

I have little desire or concern as to how the general wrestling public perceives me. I know how those who know me (fellow coaches, coworkers, friends, etc.) perceive me, how the wrestlers I have coached perceive me, and how the parents in our program perceive me. Those are the ones that matter to me… and I would hope that they would call me out if I did something wrong. It is this odd thing about society, if it doesn’t police itself then nobody will (human nature and all that jazz).

 

As far as the concerns you have expressed regarding our kids and program. I take them all seriously and evaluate as necessary. Others have already written well expressed viewpoints on some of your comments / complaints on the physicality of our wrestlers, no need for me to expand on those. Your comments regarding taunting though do merit some consideration. I can’t think of a time where I felt we taunted an opponent… supporting that I don’t believe we have ever been called for it. With the way penalties were tossed around this weekend I would think that if it occurred then we would have been hit for it. If you for some reason don’t want to publicly put something out there about an individual then feel free to e-mail me (garrett.house at gmail . com) the specifics and I will be glad to look at the situation and pass along the information to our coaching staff or talk with the wrestler myself if I have the opportunity.

 

I still hope at some point to get others interpretation on the legality of the hold in question but perhaps I can just do that face-to-face next time I see those I am interested in hearing from.

 

Hopefully if you decide to post again we can stick to facts or opinions with some sound reasoning and not personal attacks. If not it is okay because I am an adult and personal attacks don't really bother me in the long run... if they did I might hide who I am... but then again that isn't who I am.

[A1ref]

Coach,

 

I am particularly interested in your take on why this was " a completley illegal move and the right call 100% without doubt."

 

I didn't think it was an illegal move at the time... what I saw was a situation that should have been stopped for potentially dangerous but I didn't have a good angle to judge. I have now reviewed the video from mat-side (which is an excellent angle for the call) several times and am yet to understand why this position was called illegal. I firmly believe it should have been stopped as potentially dangerous before it was stopped for being illegal, which I still feel it wasn't.

 

The move being executed was a chicken wing (arm bar to some) on the left arm and a half-nelson on the right arm. This is a perfectly legal pinning combination, however it does often result, and rightfully so, in a stoppages for potentially dangerous. A chicken wing becomes illegal when the pressure is taken parallel to the long axis of the body (the spine). Many of us know this as running it towards the head / shoulder. In this situation the pressure was clearly going across the bottom wrestler thus not making the chicken wing illegal.

 

From what I can see the position was stopped due to the position of the shoulder on the right where the half was being run. Once again, I can see nothing illegal in how that was executed from the perspective of the top wrestler. Rather than turn the bottom wrestler allowed his right shoulder to go above the head and be put in a position that should have been stopped for potentially dangerous (something common in wrestling currently).

 

Based on my understanding of the rules and what I see I can see no reason why this was called illegal. I would like to hear your logic as to why you believe this was an illegal hold and the right call 100% of the time as you stated. I believe the situation was = a ref simply make the wrong call because of a lack of experience or familiarity with the rules. Furthermore to prove my point just a little, it is common that in this type of position that if the official feels the position is likely to become illegal a seasoned official will verbally alert the top man to that potential stating "keep it legal", "don't take it forward", etc. none of which was done in this situation. In my opinion simply the wrong call made by the official.

 

None of that is the fault of the Baylor staff or the wrestlers... just a sad fact we have to deal with due to the state of officiating in TN. We just don't have a strong culture for improvement or discussion amongst most of our officials and until that changes we will struggle with consistency and application of rules.

 

Now, I will go ahead and lay out something else that, in my opinion, does belong at the feet of the Baylor staff. Why was a kid who hasn't practiced live since Cleveland Duals and, by your own admission, shouldn't have been out there (I am assuming nothing materially changed in his condition since the McCallie match, when you specifically stated he shouldn't have been out there) wrestling in the state duals semi-finals? To me it sounds like the Baylor staff was willing to put him out there in an attempt to win, without regard for whether he should have been or not. That doesn't sit real well with me... our first concern should be the development of young men, not wins and losses.

 

I disagree that the Baylor staff felt that they were "pretty much out of it" at the point where they chose to have Powell take the injury default. At the time there were 4 matches left which I am willing to bet the Baylor staff felt that they had a good chance at winning at least 3 of them since they had 3 very good wrestlers left. Hindsight makes your argument seem plausible but the match results weren't available at the time and the Baylor bench and fans didn't seem to think the match was over at that point.

 

It was pretty obvious that Powell didn't want to default, much to his credit as a competitor, but I can't blame the staff (or his father based on your indication) for pulling him... they just never should have put him in that situation.

 

A similar situation occurred several years ago in the NCAA's during Steve Mocco's freshman year at Iowa (I think it was freshman year) when he was called for an illegal move (can't remember what the move was now) and his opponent from Iowa State was injured. The Iowa State staff presumably didn't feel the illegal call was warranted or at a minimum did not want it to cost Mocco the match so they had their wrestler restart the match and then default out, thus allowing Mocco to advance in the bracket. Mocco would go on to win the NCAA's that year. That was an extreme example of coaches doing what they felt was right despite a rivalry involved (and we all know the Iowa / Iowa State rivalry is big).

 

I have always held the Baylor program in high regard under its former leadership. However, I have to say based on recent events that level of respect is slipping. Hopefully Coach Nelson can prove me wrong in the future but as of right now I can't feel too good about it. That's just me being honest.

I can't go on any more without saying something in support of this ref.

TO338 you say an extremely poor call? should illegal moves only be called when the score is less than 10 points?

ghouse: look again the pressure was going up towards the head/shoulder which is illegal. The ref told the CBHS wrestler to keep it legal,He called it and stopped the match when it became illegal this is an experienced ref. 20 years Ohio, Florida, TN.wrestling is a Potentially Dangerous sport most holds are or can be called that way, It was stopped and called 100% correct, and I saw him confer with his assistant something he didn't Have to do and got the nod of approval. Refs don't know how coaches, parents, or wrestlers will respond to the situation it's not his fault they took the injury default win.

[ghouse]

I can't go on any more without saying something in support of this ref.

TO338 you say an extremely poor call? should illegal moves only be called when the score is less than 10 points?

ghouse: look again the pressure was going up towards the head/shoulder which is illegal. The ref told the CBHS wrestler to keep it legal,He called it and stopped the match when it became illegal this is an experienced ref. 20 years Ohio, Florida, TN.wrestling is a Potentially Dangerous sport most holds are or can be called that way, It was stopped and called 100% correct, and I saw him confer with his assistant something he didn't Have to do and got the nod of approval. Refs don't know how coaches, parents, or wrestlers will respond to the situation it's not his fault they took the injury default win.

 

A1Ref,

 

I have already responded to your post in another area but will do so here again as this is the conversation I am most interested in.

 

I have watched that section of video about 20 times now. If I could share it I would. The pressure is not going towards the head / shoulders. The pressure was going across the bottom wrestlers body. The top wrestler was perpendicular to the bottom wrestler and driving across his body in an attempt to run the half nelson that ultimate injured the bottom wrestler's shoulder (or appeared to base don reactions of the bottom wrestler). From a physics and biomechanics perspective i am not sure how the pressure could be parallel to the long axis in that situation.

 

Experience helps but doesn't rule one out from making a mistake. I appreciate that the official has 20 years of experience and may in fact be a good official, I haven't seen him enough to form an opinion... I just believe he missed that call, not that big a deal and will happen. I have seen many officials (and coaches) with 20 years of experience who were not as good as 1st or 2nd year officials.

 

Nor is the official responsible for the coach's actions after the call, heck I have even agreed with the coach's actions after the call, wrestler's safety comes first. The official should call things according to the rulebook regardless of reaction from either corner.

 

I have also watched the video several times since your post about the two officials. I can see the secondary official nod his agreement with the call but there is no sign that the main official looked at him as this nod occurred, The main official was looking towards the table in the video as he signaled the call while the secondary official was nodding. There was never any discussion between the two on the video. Not that the discussion is really germane to the point on the call.

[takedown2]

Would you "boys" find something better to do than talk about this match. IT'S OVER! Start thinking about what you are going to get your wife for valentines day. GET OVER THIS!!!!! PLEASE

[Sommers]

Would you "boys" find something better to do than talk about this match. IT'S OVER! Start thinking about what you are going to get your wife for valentines day. GET OVER THIS!!!!! PLEASE

thanks td2... I just got off Amazon and ordered a fine hanging stainless steel pots & pansfine set!! Be here before state!!

[2blLeg]

thanks td2... I just got off Amazon and ordered a fine hanging stainless steel pots & pansfine set!! Be here before state!!

 

What we need around here is more cowbell

[mfceo]

What we need around here is more cowbell

 

 

great idea

[TO338]

I can't go on any more without saying something in support of this ref.

TO338 you say an extremely poor call? should illegal moves only be called when the score is less than 10 points?

 

"Holy misquotation Batman". You took (2) different statements and put them together to create an idea that was not implied, nor intended. The first comment was directed at the referee's call, the second had to do with coaches.

 

The poor call in my opinion, was poor because it was simply wrong. Potentially dangerous...agreed. I do not agree in any way, shape or form that the penalty point was warranted, especially after reviewing the film. This has already been debated by those who have seen the film and referenced the rule book. No need for me to be elaborate.

 

My statement about the poor call had absolutely nothing to do with the 10-12 point swing observation, as you made it appear. The Baylor wrestler was getting majored in the final period, and clearly wanted to continue, until the coaches got involved. Therefore, it was a 10 point swing, with (4) matches remaining. My take..."coaches taking advantage of the situation as a strategy to win a State Dual Semifinal." Again, much respect to the Baylor 120 for wanting to continue.

 

The replay clearly shows that immediately following the call, the wrestler got up, moved towards the referee's position and even waived off his coach, indicating he was ok.

 

I guess the million dollar question is, would the wrestler have continued if the call was correctly made as, "potentially dangerous"?

Edited February 7, 2013 by TO338

[smwwrest]

So let me get this straight. People who are old enough to have children in college are going to a high school sports board to defend other adults on a topic that really doesn't have anything to do with them. The topic was about the end of the Baylor McCallie match not about which of you idiots should have been on the debate team in high school. Email each other personally so the rest of us don't have to sort through your crap.

 

2blLeg may be old, but he has another great wrestler working his way through the Wave program that placed in the AAU state last year. He will be on these boards for a while.

Edited February 7, 2013 by smwwrest