D2 Divisions Next Year

[JRB]

7 hours ago, Navy21412 said:

yep, that was the original "Super 7" from '97.  11 teams is not ideal, but looking at the classification #s, there isn't a logical solution I can see to add more teams.  Of the ones I'm familiar with, only JP2 and CPA would seem to fit the bill as borderline D2-AAA members from the AA group.  Looks like the sweet spot for a lot of private schools is 300-500 students.  Going from 500 to 750 or more involves big capital campaigns, bigger budgets, etc., and enrollment numbers can be very fickle.  For those that aspire to punch above their weight like Ensworth, BA, and LA, you have to be in a major population center and make a big time investment in football that will make you a destination for aspiring football players.

I am bummed that Pope is potentially moving down as I liked playing ‘big boy football”, even though until recently we had very little success.  From a financial and travel standpoint, I understand the move.

Edited October 26, 2022 by JRB

[QSouth89]

1 hour ago, Navy21412 said:

yep, that was the original "Super 7" from '97.  11 teams is not ideal, but looking at the classification #s, there isn't a logical solution I can see to add more teams.  Of the ones I'm familiar with, only JP2 and CPA would seem to fit the bill as borderline D2-AAA members from the AA group.  Looks like the sweet spot for a lot of private schools is 300-500 students.  Going from 500 to 750 or more involves big capital campaigns, bigger budgets, etc., and enrollment numbers can be very fickle.  For those that aspire to punch above their weight like Ensworth, BA, and LA, you have to be in a major population center and make a big time investment in football that will make you a destination for aspiring football players.

So what I'm hearing is that the other private schools can't compete (or don't want to compete) with McCallie, Brentwood Academy, or MBA so make a class with a handful of teams (we know how the publics feel, they demanded a split).  I went to high school in Chicago back in the 80's and in basketball there were just 2 classes for the entire state of Illinois. There were 6 classes in football. Keep in mind Chicago has over 300 high schools counting public schools, charter schools, suburban schools and private schools.  I think there is 4 classes today.  The classes expanded when they allowed all of the Chicago public schools to compete for a state basketball title.  In football there is now 8. There are around 800 high schools competing in the IHSA, 426 in Tennessee, yet we have 9 classes in football? A little extreme to me, the TSSAA can't be making that much money off these state title games. 

Edited October 26, 2022 by QSouth89

[Navy21412]

9 minutes ago, QSouth89 said:

So what I'm hearing is that the other private schools can't compete with McCallie, Brentwood Academy, MBA so make a class with that few teams (we know how the publics feel, they demanded a split)?  I went to high school in Chicago in the 80's and in basketball there were 2 classes in the entire state of Illinois. There was 6 classes in football. Keep in mind Chicago alone has over 300 high schools counting public, charter schools and private schools.  I think there is 4 classes today.  The classes expanded when they allowed all of the Chicago public schools to compete for a state title.  In football there is now 8. There are 800 high schools competing in the IHSA, 426 in Tennessee yet we have 9 classes in football? A little extreme to me, they can't be making that much money off these state title games. 

you won't get any argument from me as one who played in the 90s in the pre-split days, when there were 3 classifications for football, and 2 for every other sport, and the Clinic Bowl was played one day in December at Vanderbilt with 3 state title games and was one of the highlights of the year.  But to answer your question, much of the current reality dates to the public/private split from '96.  With that, private schools were freed from any limits on what they could do with financial aid (in the pre-split days, only 4 football players receiving financial aid could dress out), and it also generally freed them from trying to be good neighbors/partners to their public school peers.  Once they were just competing with each other, it became an arms race, and those with the deepest pockets separated themselves from everyone else.  Take a tour of MBA, LA, or Ensworth, and you'll see facilities that dwarf a lot of decent college facilities.  And those facilities and coaches are a magnet for kids not just proximate to the school, but from all over Middle TN.  I don't think any of it is particularly healthy, and I imagine anyone who really cares at the TSSAA deeply regrets how that decision played out 25 years ago.

[theawesomebro]

FWIW, this isn't just going on in private schools.  

check out this brand spanking new public school's athletic facilities...better than most privates.

check out thompsons facilities...truly better than many small colleges.

https://www.al.com/sports/erry-2018/09/8bc379bfcb7391/see-thompsons-new-192-million.html

 

 

[ChuckDSanAntonio]

50 minutes ago, theawesomebro said:

FWIW, this isn't just going on in private schools.  

check out this brand spanking new public school's athletic facilities...better than most privates.

check out thompsons facilities...truly better than many small colleges.

https://www.al.com/sports/erry-2018/09/8bc379bfcb7391/see-thompsons-new-192-million.html

 

 

And the reality is that if you are an aspiring athlete in surrounding counties you will make your way to those schools.  If you have some talent and are willing to work then you most likely can get your education paid for.  Why is that a problem?  Why isn't the conversation about giving kids the best opportunity to build their best future wherever that may begin.  Are we cheering for this generation or are we hating on the coaches and schools?  I say we need more kids with more education and with coaches as mentors that give them the opportunity to be all they can be.  Be a proponent of investing in their futures with the biggest opportunities.  I'm not an Alabama fan, but a marvel at the opportunity and fortunes Saban has created for his players with his program.

Go watch the Josh Jacobs documentary 30/30 where the first bed he had of his own was the bed in his Alabama dorm room.  He lived a homeless life.  Now, he's a multimillionaire with a platform to change lives.  Let's get on board with these local coaches of all divisions and classes that are changing lives and creating opportunities for our youth.  Be a fan, not a hater.

[theawesomebro]

5 minutes ago, ChuckDSanAntonio said:

And the reality is that if you are an aspiring athlete in surrounding counties you will make your way to those schools.  If you have some talent and are willing to work then you most likely can get your education paid for.  Why is that a problem?  Why isn't the conversation about giving kids the best opportunity to build their best future wherever that may begin.  Are we cheering for this generation or are we hating on the coaches and schools?  I say we need more kids with more education and with coaches as mentors that give them the opportunity to be all they can be.  Be a proponent of investing in their futures with the biggest opportunities.  I'm not an Alabama fan, but a marvel at the opportunity and fortunes Saban has created for his players with his program.

Go watch the Josh Jacobs documentary 30/30 where the first bed he had of his own was the bed in his Alabama dorm room.  He lived a homeless life.  Now, he's a multimillionaire with a platform to change lives.  Let's get on board with these local coaches of all divisions and classes that are changing lives and creating opportunities for our youth.  Be a fan, not a hater.

i'm sorry if I seemed critical of anyone at all.  I was just pointing out that private schools aren't the only ones putting big dollars into athletic facilities.  im a lipscomb guy so I have no room to criticize someone for spending on athletics at all.  my kids are not particularly gifted athletes and will probably never start on a varsity team in any sport but I am glad our school is working to excel at sports as well as academics.  definitely a fan!!  

[QSouth89]

On 10/26/2022 at 11:57 AM, Navy21412 said:

you won't get any argument from me as one who played in the 90s in the pre-split days, when there were 3 classifications for football, and 2 for every other sport, and the Clinic Bowl was played one day in December at Vanderbilt with 3 state title games and was one of the highlights of the year.  But to answer your question, much of the current reality dates to the public/private split from '96.  With that, private schools were freed from any limits on what they could do with financial aid (in the pre-split days, only 4 football players receiving financial aid could dress out), and it also generally freed them from trying to be good neighbors/partners to their public school peers.  Once they were just competing with each other, it became an arms race, and those with the deepest pockets separated themselves from everyone else.  Take a tour of MBA, LA, or Ensworth, and you'll see facilities that dwarf a lot of decent college facilities.  And those facilities and coaches are a magnet for kids not just proximate to the school, but from all over Middle TN.  I don't think any of it is particularly healthy, and I imagine anyone who really cares at the TSSAA deeply regrets how that decision played out 25 years ago.

How about two classes in D2 based on the amount financial aid you spend on sports?  However there is always the possibility that schools could fudge money numbers to play in a different classification. I made the trip to Lipscomb to watch them play Catholic  and I was amazed by their facilities. What I assumed was a gym was an indoor practice facility.  Impressive.

[ChuckDSanAntonio]

20 minutes ago, QSouth89 said:

How about two classes in D2 based on the amount financial aid you spend on sports?  However there is always the possibility that schools could fudge money numbers to play in a different classification. I made the trip to Lipscomb to watch them play Catholic  and I was amazed by their facilities. What I assumed was a gym was an indoor practice facility.  Impressive.

The indoor facility was in place a couple years before Dilfer arrived.  I believe it was only available to Lipscomb students.  Now, athletes from all over and competing schools train in the facility.  Again, let's applaud a focus on opportunity.  My gut tells me the biggest investment (maybe it's 1.3 total) has been in the coaching staff.  A good coach is like a good CEO.  An incredible lesson in how important it is to have a good leader of a school, a business or a team.  Got to have the right guys on the bus.

[O3t]

39 minutes ago, QSouth89 said:

How about two classes in D2 based on the amount financial aid you spend on sports?  However there is always the possibility that schools could fudge money numbers to play in a different classification. I made the trip to Lipscomb to watch them play Catholic  and I was amazed by their facilities. What I assumed was a gym was an indoor practice facility.  Impressive.

I think this would cause problems.  Only way to say the amount of financial aid spent on sports would be to add up the total given to all athletes.  If it was total then it could hurt the bigger schools that have more students that participate in other sports.   If you did it by average given to student athlete, would it make it less likely for certain students to get financial aid if they weren't a star in a sport.  Would it make it harder for girls to get financial aid?  If you only did it based on football again would it make it harder for a kid that wants to attend school there, can only do it with financial aid, but will never be a starter?  I don't know if there is a better way to do it than numbers.

[QSouth89]

26 minutes ago, O3t said:

I think this would cause problems.  Only way to say the amount of financial aid spent on sports would be to add up the total given to all athletes.  If it was total then it could hurt the bigger schools that have more students that participate in other sports.   If you did it by average given to student athlete, would it make it less likely for certain students to get financial aid if they weren't a star in a sport.  Would it make it harder for girls to get financial aid?  If you only did it based on football again would it make it harder for a kid that wants to attend school there, can only do it with financial aid, but will never be a starter?  I don't know if there is a better way to do it than numbers.

Good point, I didn't consider all sports. 

[Navy21412]

1 hour ago, QSouth89 said:

Good point, I didn't consider all sports. 

I can't see 2 classes for football working in D2.  There are 49 total D2 schools. If you cut them in half, you'd have the smallest being FRA with 360 students (assume 180 boys) competing against the likes of MBA (565 boys), McCallie (724 boys), and CBHS (727 boys).  I don't know if a financial aid kicker would make much difference.  So I will take the ChuckD approach...3 classes allows for more kids to play similar competition, more fun for parents, students, cheerleaders, etc every Friday night.  Better that than to have their heads beaten in every week and the programs die on the vine because it's not fun for anyone.

On the other hand, if you split everyone up into 3 roughly even classes (17 A, 16 AA, 16 AAA), you would add to AAA this cycle

SBA (has been playing in AAA, with basically no success)

JP2 (has been playing in AAA; has had some success)

CPA (de facto AAA team now, beat MBA and BA last year)

Chattanooga Christian

Knox Webb

Don't know enough about the last 2 as fits in AAA...what say you @Booger?

[ChuckDSanAntonio]

51 minutes ago, Navy21412 said:

I can't see 2 classes for football working in D2.  There are 49 total D2 schools. If you cut them in half, you'd have the smallest being FRA with 360 students (assume 180 boys) competing against the likes of MBA (565 boys), McCallie (724 boys), and CBHS (727 boys).  I don't know if a financial aid kicker would make much difference.  So I will take the ChuckD approach...3 classes allows for more kids to play similar competition, more fun for parents, students, cheerleaders, etc every Friday night.  Better that than to have their heads beaten in every week and the programs die on the vine because it's not fun for anyone.

On the other hand, if you split everyone up into 3 roughly even classes (17 A, 16 AA, 16 AAA), you would add to AAA this cycle

SBA (has been playing in AAA, with basically no success)

JP2 (has been playing in AAA; has had some success)

CPA (de facto AAA team now, beat MBA and BA last year)

Chattanooga Christian

Knox Webb

Don't know enough about the last 2 as fits in AAA...what say you @Booger?

I like Chucks approach...give the kids fair opportunity.  I am also in the camp of CPA being a defacto AAA team.  They have 5 or 6 D1 athletes on the team.