Private state Champs vs large public champ

[ObseverW]

1 hour ago, CarlSpackler88 said:

A few years ago, Lake Gibson from FL was ranked 45th nationally and they won the Knockout Christmas Classic that year down in Orlando. This year, Cleveland dominated down there and won that same tournament. I'd imagine thats close to apples to apples and Cleveland is probably pretty worthy of being considered in the top 50. Is what it is......Its why we want to wrestle them

 

South Dade NOR Buford had 14 wrestlers down at Knockout. Again individual tournaments are a joke to keep team scores at to begin with, however if everyone wants to keep bringing those up as a basis for beating a top 50 team you have to at least look at what happened.

 

So yeah maybe Cleveland head2head can win those matches(I actually have them winning 8 of 14 WC, but only winning 28-27 and I gave Cleveland 2 of the 3 tossups I had for them). So Cleveland might win but they also very well lose both matches to those 2 teams. As I said they are a top 50 team, but how far up is the real question because top 50 is still impressive. South Dade was missing a kid that was a state placer from the year before(and probably again this year since they wrestle states this weekend) and even with only 13 they still almost beat Cleveland(lost by 4.5 pts and lost 1 pt for unsportsmanlike). Buford lost to Camden this season in both duals and individuals, but Buford also was missing 5 wrestlers at Knockout. 3 of those were state placers and 1 was a defending state champion before getting to semis of state this year and got beat 9-8 while he was winning 7-3 going into the last period and gave up 2 sets of 2pt NF and a TD to get beat 9-8 and medically forfeited out of the tourney. I think Buford gets at least 3-4 pins and that keeps them close in a dual, however I also give Cleveland the win at 113 and that is a toss up since Walker beat him 3-1 at knockout and also gave them 126 with Bosken against K McCormack who wasnt at Knockout and placed 2nd in state like Bosken did. 

 

106-Matz               Cordero-          Cordero win by pin

113-DJ Clarke-2                    Walker-            Walker by dec   Walker won 3-1 last time               

120-Ibold-2                            Maughon          Ibold by dec

126-Keiron McCormack-2    Bosken              Bosken by dec      this is a toss up, McCormack wasn’t at knockout

132-McArthur-1                     Rice                  McArthur by pin  also not at knockout

138-Gorman-1                        Congdon          Gorman by pin      

144-Pope-6                             York                  Pope by pin  was defending state champ

150-Danielson-4                     Schuft             Danielson by dec    toss up here

157-C. McCormack-6            Cy Fowler        Cy Fowler by dec

165-Santee-1                         L Fowler            L Fowler by dec

175-Pope                               Harrold             Harrold by dec

190-McCloskey-3                  Szymborski       Szymborski by MD

215-Riner-1                            Moore               Riner by pin

285-Butler-6                           Russel               Russel by dec

[FR615]

5 hours ago, CarlSpackler88 said:

HA....we were thinking the same thing @FrecoFanatic!!

Cleveland could not beat Buford with their full lineup. Thinking they are better is nuts. Cleveland is good but they aren’t a “national” team as said.

Edited February 29 by FR615

[FR615]

3 hours ago, ObseverW said:

South Dade NOR Buford had 14 wrestlers down at Knockout. Again individual tournaments are a joke to keep team scores at to begin with, however if everyone wants to keep bringing those up as a basis for beating a top 50 team you have to at least look at what happened.

 

So yeah maybe Cleveland head2head can win those matches(I actually have them winning 8 of 14 WC, but only winning 28-27 and I gave Cleveland 2 of the 3 tossups I had for them). So Cleveland might win but they also very well lose both matches to those 2 teams. As I said they are a top 50 team, but how far up is the real question because top 50 is still impressive. South Dade was missing a kid that was a state placer from the year before(and probably again this year since they wrestle states this weekend) and even with only 13 they still almost beat Cleveland(lost by 4.5 pts and lost 1 pt for unsportsmanlike). Buford lost to Camden this season in both duals and individuals, but Buford also was missing 5 wrestlers at Knockout. 3 of those were state placers and 1 was a defending state champion before getting to semis of state this year and got beat 9-8 while he was winning 7-3 going into the last period and gave up 2 sets of 2pt NF and a TD to get beat 9-8 and medically forfeited out of the tourney. I think Buford gets at least 3-4 pins and that keeps them close in a dual, however I also give Cleveland the win at 113 and that is a toss up since Walker beat him 3-1 at knockout and also gave them 126 with Bosken against K McCormack who wasnt at Knockout and placed 2nd in state like Bosken did. 

 

106-Matz               Cordero-          Cordero win by pin

113-DJ Clarke-2                    Walker-            Walker by dec   Walker won 3-1 last time               

120-Ibold-2                            Maughon          Ibold by dec

126-Keiron McCormack-2    Bosken              Bosken by dec      this is a toss up, McCormack wasn’t at knockout

132-McArthur-1                     Rice                  McArthur by pin  also not at knockout

138-Gorman-1                        Congdon          Gorman by pin      

144-Pope-6                             York                  Pope by pin  was defending state champ

150-Danielson-4                     Schuft             Danielson by dec    toss up here

157-C. McCormack-6            Cy Fowler        Cy Fowler by dec

165-Santee-1                         L Fowler            L Fowler by dec

175-Pope                               Harrold             Harrold by dec

190-McCloskey-3                  Szymborski       Szymborski by MD

215-Riner-1                            Moore               Riner by pin

285-Butler-6                           Russel               Russel by dec

Exactly 

[FR615]

10 hours ago, FrecoFanatic said:

So because he coached wrestling and has been on Coach T for life means if he says it, then it must be true? Well I coach wrestling, specifically the kids he is talking about, I have traveled all over the country and seen the other Fab 50 teams and feel pretty good that we could beat at least one or two of them in a dual. The guy who does the Fab 50 is pretty knowledgeable about High School Wrestling in this country and he seems to think we deserve to be recognized in the rankings as well. But let me defer to @cbg since you have told me no one knows more about wrestling and the Fab 50 teams. He has such an expansive knowledge of all of those teams and their rosters that he knows we would not beat a single one of the them in a dual, so thank you for clearing that up.

You get offended easily. Nobody is saying Cleveland didn’t have the best team in the state this year. 

[desselle]

2 hours ago, FR615 said:

Cleveland could not beat Buford with their full lineup. Thinking they are better is nuts. Cleveland is good but they aren’t a “national” team as said.

Cleveland could beat Buford. Where Buford is really good that’s Cleveland’s weak spot. 

[FR615]

6 minutes ago, desselle said:

Cleveland could beat Buford. Where Buford is really good that’s Cleveland’s weak spot. 

It would be close but Buford runs it up 132-150.

[desselle]

1 minute ago, FR615 said:

It would be close but Buford runs it up 132-150.

I can speak from experience they will need to win more than that to beat Cleveland. I think Buford would need at least another 3 matches to win. Not sure they have that. 

[FR615]

120, 215 easy. Buford bonus points wins it. Most of Cleveland’s wins would be decisions. I have tons of respect for you and Landon. He has been to watch and wish him the best.

Edited March 1 by FR615

[FrecoFanatic]

17 hours ago, ObseverW said:

South Dade NOR Buford had 14 wrestlers down at Knockout. Again individual tournaments are a joke to keep team scores at to begin with, however if everyone wants to keep bringing those up as a basis for beating a top 50 team you have to at least look at what happened.

 

So yeah maybe Cleveland head2head can win those matches(I actually have them winning 8 of 14 WC, but only winning 28-27 and I gave Cleveland 2 of the 3 tossups I had for them). So Cleveland might win but they also very well lose both matches to those 2 teams. As I said they are a top 50 team, but how far up is the real question because top 50 is still impressive. South Dade was missing a kid that was a state placer from the year before(and probably again this year since they wrestle states this weekend) and even with only 13 they still almost beat Cleveland(lost by 4.5 pts and lost 1 pt for unsportsmanlike). Buford lost to Camden this season in both duals and individuals, but Buford also was missing 5 wrestlers at Knockout. 3 of those were state placers and 1 was a defending state champion before getting to semis of state this year and got beat 9-8 while he was winning 7-3 going into the last period and gave up 2 sets of 2pt NF and a TD to get beat 9-8 and medically forfeited out of the tourney. I think Buford gets at least 3-4 pins and that keeps them close in a dual, however I also give Cleveland the win at 113 and that is a toss up since Walker beat him 3-1 at knockout and also gave them 126 with Bosken against K McCormack who wasnt at Knockout and placed 2nd in state like Bosken did. 

 

106-Matz               Cordero-          Cordero win by pin

113-DJ Clarke-2                    Walker-            Walker by dec   Walker won 3-1 last time               

120-Ibold-2                            Maughon          Ibold by dec

126-Keiron McCormack-2    Bosken              Bosken by dec      this is a toss up, McCormack wasn’t at knockout

132-McArthur-1                     Rice                  McArthur by pin  also not at knockout

138-Gorman-1                        Congdon          Gorman by pin      

144-Pope-6                             York                  Pope by pin  was defending state champ

150-Danielson-4                     Schuft             Danielson by dec    toss up here

157-C. McCormack-6            Cy Fowler        Cy Fowler by dec

165-Santee-1                         L Fowler            L Fowler by dec

175-Pope                               Harrold             Harrold by dec

190-McCloskey-3                  Szymborski       Szymborski by MD

215-Riner-1                            Moore               Riner by pin

285-Butler-6                           Russel               Russel by dec

That was exactly my point. We COULD win 7 or more matches against them, so saying we don’t belong seems a little unjustified. I honestly don’t know why anyone feels the need to even say we don’t belong in the first place. Those rankings are simply Mat Scout’s opinion. Our state is getting recognized in a good way by outside observers and people just want to respond by saying “Cleveland is not really a Fab 50 team.” Why not just say good for Cleveland and good for our state @FR615? And before you start talking about hurt feelings, go back and read some of the posts you made after Father Ryan got dropped by McCallie.

Edited March 1 by FrecoFanatic

[ObseverW]

3 hours ago, FrecoFanatic said:

That was exactly my point. We COULD win 7 or more matches against them, so saying we don’t belong seems a little unjustified. I honestly don’t know why anyone feels the need to even say we don’t belong in the first place. Those rankings are simply Mat Scout’s opinion. Our state is getting recognized in a good way by outside observers and people just want to respond by saying “Cleveland is not really a Fab 50 team.” Why not just say good for Cleveland and good for our state @FR615? And before you start talking about hurt feelings, go back and read some of the posts you made after Father Ryan got dropped by McCallie.

I distinctly stated Cleveland is a top 50 nationally school. Also head2head I have Cleveland pulling a very tight match out against Buford, Buford gets more pins for sure and Buford is strongest where Cleveland is weakest, so to beat out Cleveland Buford would have to win the 3 toss ups that I have. However it's very hard to use Individual tournament team scores as a basis on top teams. That's why Iowa doesn't do team scores at all, they say its because in an individual tournament teams don't matter because there's rarely head to head and in the end seeding comes into play more and not having full line-ups. Buford even if kids are sick or injured(which is why Pope didn't make the Knockout tourney) would send someone out to try and trim some points if it was head2head, at an individual tournament that was travel they wouldn't do the same thing. So, YES Cleveland had success this season in individual tournaments, but that's comparing apples to grapes when it comes to actual strength of a full team. I mean Bishop McCourt rarely wrestled individual tourneys with a full lineup, but they did when they got beat in state duals, so when looking at some of those tournaments like Powerade, Carnahan and Knockout even some of the other top 50 schools in the country didn't bring a full compliment of wrestlers, but when wrestling state team duals they had full 14.

[FrecoFanatic]

29 minutes ago, ObseverW said:

I distinctly stated Cleveland is a top 50 nationally school. Also head2head I have Cleveland pulling a very tight match out against Buford, Buford gets more pins for sure and Buford is strongest where Cleveland is weakest, so to beat out Cleveland Buford would have to win the 3 toss ups that I have. However it's very hard to use Individual tournament team scores as a basis on top teams. That's why Iowa doesn't do team scores at all, they say its because in an individual tournament teams don't matter because there's rarely head to head and in the end seeding comes into play more and not having full line-ups. Buford even if kids are sick or injured(which is why Pope didn't make the Knockout tourney) would send someone out to try and trim some points if it was head2head, at an individual tournament that was travel they wouldn't do the same thing. So, YES Cleveland had success this season in individual tournaments, but that's comparing apples to grapes when it comes to actual strength of a full team. I mean Bishop McCourt rarely wrestled individual tourneys with a full lineup, but they did when they got beat in state duals, so when looking at some of those tournaments like Powerade, Carnahan and Knockout even some of the other top 50 schools in the country didn't bring a full compliment of wrestlers, but when wrestling state team duals they had full 14.

I was specifically referring to the arguments FR was making and the criticism that we should not be considered a Fab 50 team by May Scouts. I have no problem with your arguments.