region 5: too many teams?

[headtap1]

Your right coach P. Got caught up in the moment. Sorry If I offended any region V teams. 23 is a lot of teams.

[CoachDelgado]

23 does sound like a lot of teams. The problem lies in that the regions are drawn up geographically. The powers that be tend to not be reactionary to that kind of growth. Reduction could also happen if teams start to drop. If they reacted every time a school was added or dropped, it would be difficult to manage. Your region just happen to emcompass a growing area of the state, the area south of Nashville. As far as creating a new region, 32 is a nice round number for the state tournament. 9 regions would make it 36 in a bracket or 27 in a bracket if you take the top 3. With 32, everyone wrestles the same number of matches to be a state champ or placer. With an odd number, there is a percieved and possible advantage to the wrestler who wrestles fewer matches.

Edited January 16, 2004 by CoachDelgado

[delaWarr]

This is more complicated than a simple equity by numbers issue. It brings up territorial issues, separation of strengths issues, change issues. Region V has been the largest region for over a decade and, along with some other regions, has steadily continued to get even larger. As was said on the message boards last year when this issue came up, growth is good for the sport. Growth is on our side. It is one of the things we want to happen. The ideal would be for wrestling interests state-wide (coaches in particular) to recognize the benefits of growth and embrace the idea that change, which may include everyone, needs to be considered to accomodate such a great, long-term benefit to the sport. This would have to be done with an open attitude that some individual agendas may have to be sacraficed to some degree for the ultimate good of the sport.

 

To try to keep the growth confined within given boundaries is stiffling within the boundaries.

 

Let's take a look from a position that most probably never comes up because we are so focused on the "best" business. All sports are included under the umbrella of educational institutions because it has been determined that there are educational values to be gained by those who get involved. And this poster strongly believes that those values are real. They are just as real for the wrestler who commits himself to giving his all, but comes up with lesser success as they are for the wrestler who commits himself to giving his all and comes out the "best".

 

The decision-makers have set four as the number of contestants in each weight class to come from each region. Therefore placing fourth in the region has meaning and is a valid goal for a wrestler because achieving it opens another door for him. He can go to the State level. He may or may not enjoy success, but whatever experience that level provides, he can be a part of it.

 

If the top four teams of a region average qualifying seven wrestlers each for the State, that would represent one half of the regions allotment, 28. That then would leave 28 wrestlers to be divided among the remaining teams. If this scenario were played out in a ten team region (not an intent to single out a particular region, that's just the size of the region on the low extreme) then 28 wrestlers would be spread out among six teams. If that scenario were played out in a 23 team region, then those 28 remaining slots would be spread out among 19 teams.

 

Most of us will probably agree with the value of taking the top four to the State. From the above illustration we can see that the opportunities for the lower placing wrestlers of the larger region are significantly reduced. It would also be far more likely for a team in the larger region to not qualify a single wrestler for the State, leaving that program without State benefits altogether.

 

The question then can be asked, why should some wrestlers be victimized by numbers in not having a reasonably equal opportunity with all other wrestlers to participate in the State experience?

Edited January 16, 2004 by delaWarr

[Bobvark]

Well done...

I nominate you for our regional president.

[PapaRaptor]

In many other states Regional tournements are made up of the same number of teams. Say 8 teams per regional. This is done every year. It is not that hard. They just start at the top of the state and work there way down. In populated areas there may be 2 regionals within 30 miles of each other and in less densely populated areas of the state it may be 100 miles. Anyway, the regions are drawn up fresh every year. Why the TSSAA doesn't choose to do something like this I don't understand. It is not as much work as some would believe to do this. One after noon with a map with all the schools who have a wrestling team on it. and it could be done.

[texas23]

delaWarr,

 

Well thought out post. I have seen you use math on here before to support your view, and quantitatively it is sound.

 

However, in "real life" the numbers will not fall so evenly or nicely. A very strong team in either a large (23 team) or smaller (10 team) region could still dominate. Let's say a Soddy team traded places with what ever team is strongest in Region V (I don't name the team because I don't want to hear all the who is strongest stuff, it is not important to the point). Anyway, I think that the Soddy team may take more state births in Region V than it may take in the Region it now resides in.

 

I like what PapaRaptor posted, why can't the TSSAA just form the regions on a yearly basis and try to make them as equal as possible in numbers and power, along with geographically considerations? New schools don't pop up with out some advance notice, they take time to build, so no surprises there. The first time would be the most difficult, but after that the task would seem to be a little shorter and easier to complete.

 

I know this is a simple answer and does not and will not fit every teams need, as you pointed out in you post.

 

Just a little more chum for the fish to feed on.

 

Again, great post delaWarr.

[CoachGonyeaSHS]

with a twenty four man braket (2 day tournament) which is what we run for the Region Tournament in region V, I as a wrestler must wrestle at least 4 matches to qualify in the winners bracket. If I qualify in the consolation bracket, I must wrestle 6-7 matches(Depending on when I lost in the winners bracket). However, If I am in an 8 man bracket to qualify for the state tournament I only need to wrestle twice to qualify for the state tournament in the winners bracket. If I am in the consolation Bracket, I only have to win one more time to qualify. Now granted, I realize Bradley and Soddy are both phenominal teams, however, they still have a greater probability of sending almost a full squad to state in a 8-10 team region than say a Franklin or Smyrna team in a 24 man bracket. While you may not think this is true, a wrestler who has his whole team at the state has a little more confidence than say a wrestler who only has one or two teamates with him.

 

In 24 team region - I have a 1/8 shot of finishing 1st or 2nd

I then have a 1/32 shot of finishing 3rd or 4th

In 8 team region - I have 1/4 shot of finishing 1st or 2nd

I have 1/4 shot of finishing 3rd or 4th

Mathematically this is rather staggering

 

Coach Gonyea

Smyrna High Wrestling

 

Once again, please don't take this as whining or offering excuses. I believe we are moving in the right direction to become a better team. And region V is making us stronger.

Edited January 16, 2004 by CoachGonyeaSHS

[Bobvark]

Has anyone taken the state results from last year and figured out which regions had the most placers? What about over the past 3-5 years? I know some of you have kids that get bored in your class or study hall, print out the previous place winners and the regions and have them talley it up.

 

Coach G. good job, you know what also helps? Having the tournament close to home.

[texas23]

Your right, that is a lot of wrestling to qualify for the state tourny. If the TSSAA were to re-align how would you suggest to pick which schools go to other regions?

 

If it is the teams that have had the better results in the past, say 5 years, then those teams most likely do not want to move to say a Region in the near east of them. Their chances of qualifying more wrestlers may be lower (debatable, but it could easily be assumed).

 

Now, if you choose the teams with the poorer results (newer teams) and make the same move as above. These teams are even more likely to not have the same chance of advancing some wrestlers to the state tourny (again, debatable, but it could be easily assumed).

 

I would see in the short to longer term that this may have a negative effect on the current teams in that region. The resume's of those teams being able to claim district championships and region championships is going to effected. I believe that you should hold the cards you are delt now and be patience on the re-alignment. It is going to be painful for someone out there.

[glovebox27]

I am a wrestler in Region 5. I knew we were bigger just by going to state and seeing their region shirts with like 10 teams and stuff on the back, and well it upset me off a bit, and i look at the back of mine and see 24 teams. I just shrigged my shoulders about it and never thought much, because i'm taught not to complain, but now that i see how easy or well how many matches yall have to get to state compared to us that is ludacris!!! We could be split up into 3 different regions, almost 4 and be the size of other regions, im just asking to be split inot two. It's too late for that in my career now though. But to some of our freshmen that will help them get the experience.

 

Well there was somthing said about region 5 not being any good. are you crazy, we are at least the 3rd best region, and most say 2nd to chattanooga area which is region 3. All i know is i can't say much to prove we are the best or 2nd best or anything, but we have so many talented teams like franklin, centennial, smyrna, and Warren County to name a few.

 

I hope they do somthing soon to fix this problem to help me out in the future.

[Tacoma]

I agree.

[CoachGonyeaSHS]

Region: 3

District: 5

Cleveland High School (Cleveland)

Cookeville High School (Cookeville)

Cumberland Co. High School (Crossville)

McMinn Co. High School (Athens)

Rhea Co. High School (Evensville)

District: 6

Boyd Buchanan High School (Chattanooga)

Bradley Central High School (Cleveland)

Chattanooga Central High School (Harrison)

McMinn Central High School (Englewood)

Tyner Academy (Chattanooga)

 

Clevenland sent 14 Finished 3rd 132.5 pts

Cookeville sent 10 Finished 9th 61.0 pts

Cumberland County sent 7 Finished 52nd 10.0 pts

McMinn County Sent 0 No Finish

Rhea Co sent 4 Finished 37th 18.0 pts

Boyd Buchanan Sent 1 Finished 67th 5.0 pts

Bradley Sent 14 Finished 1st 223.5 pts

Chattanooga Central Sent 5 Finished 54th 9.0 pts

McMinn Central Sent 1 Finished 85th 0.0 pts

Tyner sent 1 Finished 79th 2.0 pts

 

Region V

Franklin sent 9 Finished 4th 113.5 pts

Brentwood sent 4 Finished 17th 44.5 pts

Smyrna sent 6 Finished 14th 47.0 pts

Tullahoma sent 4 Finished 13th 48.5 pts

 

While I agree that Bradley and Cleveland dominate their region, they have more opportunities to score than other teams from larger regions. I believe that if my team or anyone of the 4 teams mentioned from region V would have wrestled in the region 3 tournamnet, our numbers would have gone up for the number of people we send. Cleveland and Bradley could have fought over 1st and 2nd, yet I can still have guys fighting for 3rd and 4th.

 

You give me 4 more qualifiers and I bet I could score at least 13 more points and that would put my team in the top 10. Give Tullahoma 6 more guys and I'm sure they could have scored 11 more points to also finish in the top 10. Our teams numbers are watered down by the sheer numbers of wrestlers to wrestle in the tournament.

 

It is a psychological factor if I am a lone man from a team and see all 14 cleveland or bradley wrestlers warming up and I am with my coach in the corner all by ourselves....

Edited January 16, 2004 by CoachGonyeaSHS