Financial Aid?

[charlie]

Sadly, all of this is about winning. Classification, division II, the Collinwood proposal. Some refer to it as the "level playing field".

 

There was a time when private schools in general could not compete athletically with public schools. How many 3A basketball championships were won by private schools? Before classification how many basketball championships were won by private schools?

 

In the business sector competition makes some companies better. Ford is a better company because of General Motors, Nissan and Honda. They have to be in order to compete for our dollars. And they are better because they know we consumers have a choice of products. One would have thought under the same circumstances, public schools would have gotten better because of the competition of the growing numbers of nonpublic schools. Maybe they have. But wouldn't it be nice for Ford if they could somehow eliminate General Motors, Honda and Nissan.

 

It is also too bad that TSSAA is the only game in town. If a school wants to field a high school football team in Tennessee, it has to be a member of TSSAA. The private schools have no other choice. Sure, they could all leave TSSAA and form a private school league. Problem is that they would no longer be members of the National Federation which means they could not compete with teams in other states. The NF will only sanction/recognize ONE association from a state.

 

Too much rambling. Sorry. Cuts in public school funding of coaching supplements, coaching positions, etc have probably allowed nonpublic schools to gain the competitive edge over the years. There is also (at least in metro areas) a lack of proper maintenance of public school athletic facilities, which does not help the image. Bottom line: have public schools been unable to compete in general (not just athletically)? Could public schools, instead of trying to eliminate nonpublics, somehow use the nonpublics as a model? I don't know.

 

As we all know Ford will never eliminate General Motors or Honda. But if Ford fails to keep up, they will go out of business. This is all too complicated for me!

[itzme]

itzme and mctigerfa...the same goes for public school folks who call private school kids "stuck up" or tell them "you must think you are better than anyone else".

 

Right??

No question. Fortunately, the name callers are in the minority.

[Baldcoach]

itzme and mctigerfa...the same goes for public school folks who call private school kids "stuck up" or tell them "you must think you are better than anyone else".

 

Right??

No question. Fortunately, the name callers are in the minority.

 

Agreed...and the same for the private schools. I have never personally heard anyone say derogatory things about public schools or the kids that attend.

[Baldcoach]

Are there any cases in current 1A and A private schools where a student wished to play but couldn't because he or she receives financial aid? If so, wouldn't that be worth moving to Division II by itself? And has any potential student and family been told beforehand they would need to pay to be able to be eligible?

 

Indian,

 

Just speaking from personal experience here but I know that that is exactly the reason that some of the smaller privates with high tuition went DII (BGA for example). They had kids on financial aid and the boards decided that children should not be left out over money. I applaud them.

 

Most DI privates don't give financial aid save for extreme and isolated cases. I know we tell the student and parents up front that if aid is being given they can't play Varsity sports. So far no one has backed out because of it. I believe it is because they aren't applying because of sports in the first place, but because of our Christian atmosphere.

[charlie]

Baldcoach-

If a school does have a financial aid program (goes through Princeton), but denies it to a student because said student wants to participate in athletics, isn't that discrimination within your own school?

 

What if a student has received aid in grades 6 - 8 and has participated in athletics. When he becomes a ninth-grader, you just cut him off because he wants to continue with athletics? Seems pretty cold-hearted.

 

Exactly the reason some schools choose to be in DII... it's the principle. Don't believe in in-school discrimination. Parents should not be forced to make the choice of aid or athletics, especially if he(she) has been in the school for a number of years and recieved aid previously.

 

Oh... me think that some DI privates have found other ways to skin the cat.

Edited February 14, 2004 by charlie

[ELA]

Here are the facts:

 

1. FUNDING PUBLIC EDUCATION: Everyone pays local county taxes IF and ONLY IF you own property (i.e. land) in the county. 25-45% of all education funds come from PROPERTY TAXES. The rest comes from sales taxes (state portion of teacher salaries) and a small percentage (4-7%) comes from the federal government. Less than 1% comes private donations and "candy sales."

 

2. REASONS FOR PUBLIC EDUCATION: YES, everyone who owns property or pays sales taxes contributes to PUBLIC EDUCATION because WE DON'T WANT TO HAVE AN ILLITERATE POPULATION. Thomas Jefferson came up with the idea of a free public education for every student. It wouldn't become a reality during his lifetime, but by the late 19th century, it became a goal of every political leader in the US and now we support our public education system so that the general workforce will be able to read, write, add, and have some sense of his/her social and civic responsibility. For those who want to do away with public education, you know that would leave a large percentage of the population uneducated.

 

3. PRIVATE EDUCATION has it's own niche in our society! It has been around since the 5th Century BC in ancient Greece, but has almost always only been available to those who can afford it. Early in the 20th century, private schools attracted better teachers because they offered better pay and held teachers to higher standards. Today, public schools generally pay much more than private schools with a few exceptions. IN large metro areas around the nation, private education has grown by leaps and bounds as more middle class parents have given up on public education.

 

4. The AVERAGE COST of PRIVATE EDUCATION is "out of the reach" of the average American family.

 

5. School Vouchers will not pay for 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of a private education!

 

6. MOST public school coaches do not like playing private school teams for a variety of reasons.

 

7. The multiplier system will make many 1A rural schools VERY happy but it does transfer the problems to AA and AAA schools who will continue to complain for the next four years.

[itzme]

Here are the facts:

 

1. FUNDING PUBLIC EDUCATION: Everyone pays local county taxes IF and ONLY IF you own property (i.e. land) in the county. 25-45% of all education funds come from PROPERTY TAXES. The rest comes from sales taxes (state portion of teacher salaries) and a small percentage (4-7%) comes from the federal government. Less than 1% comes private donations and "candy sales."

 

2. REASONS FOR PUBLIC EDUCATION: YES, everyone who owns property or pays sales taxes contributes to PUBLIC EDUCATION because WE DON'T WANT TO HAVE AN ILLITERATE POPULATION. Thomas Jefferson came up with the idea of a free public education for every student. It wouldn't become a reality during his lifetime, but by the late 19th century, it became a goal of every political leader in the US and now we support our public education system so that the general workforce will be able to read, write, add, and have some sense of his/her social and civic responsibility. For those who want to do away with public education, you know that would leave a large percentage of the population uneducated.

 

3. PRIVATE EDUCATION has it's own niche in our society! It has been around since the 5th Century BC in ancient Greece, but has almost always only been available to those who can afford it. Early in the 20th century, private schools attracted better teachers because they offered better pay and held teachers to higher standards. Today, public schools generally pay much more than private schools with a few exceptions. IN large metro areas around the nation, private education has grown by leaps and bounds as more middle class parents have given up on public education.

 

4. The AVERAGE COST of PRIVATE EDUCATION is "out of the reach" of the average American family.

 

5. School Vouchers will not pay for 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of a private education!

 

6. MOST public school coaches do not like playing private school teams for a variety of reasons.

 

7. The multiplier system will make many 1A rural schools VERY happy but it does transfer the problems to AA and AAA schools who will continue to complain for the next four years.

Agree with all but point 5.

 

A voucher in the full amount of the ongoing cost per pupil of public education would cover most of the expenses at most private schools. If the cost of funds to buy land and build public school facilities were included as well, the voucher would be for far more than tuition costs at most private schools, and would pay well over 50% at almost any private school I can think of, with very few exceptions.

[Baldcoach]

I agree with all but 5 too.

 

Average tuition at the small privates in Chattanooga for highschool this year was in the 5-6k range. Average per pupil spent by Hamilton County was almost double that.

 

Public education is a great thing, and personally I am not for vouchers. Most religious private schools are not...it would be tantamount to recieving Government funding and that could open the door to all kinds of interference...getting away from which was a primary reason a lot of the religious privates were formed.

 

Is it just me or does anyone else think that the reason public schools are so inefficient with funding is that it is basically a socialist system? I am just talking about the economics and no competition aspects here, not what is taught.

 

Perhaps vouchers would inspire the public system to become more effecient? I am still against them...just tossing ideas out. I am for anything that betters education in general, public or private.

[ELA]

Here is the HUGE difference: PRIVATE SCHOOLS DO NOT EDUCATE THE SPECIAL EDUCATION STUDENTS! WHERE WILL THEY GO? I have heard this said over and over again by many public school DIRECTORS... Give me the same amount of money we now receive and allow me to pick and choose who attends my schools and I will produce the same results as the average private school. I have also talked to many private school people who say they ARE NOT IN FAVOR of a total voucher system because they don't want to accept all of the "Strings" that go along with FEDERAL MONEY. You would have to educate special education students, "405" students, and you won't be able to "Kick students out" who refuse to follow the rules.

 

Also, in the five states that have allowed limited vouchers, they have never offered more than $4200.00 per child. That won't get a student into Notre Dame, McCallie, Baylor, or Boyd!

[Baldcoach]

Here is the HUGE difference: PRIVATE SCHOOLS DO NOT EDUCATE THE SPECIAL EDUCATION STUDENTS! WHERE WILL THEY GO? I have heard this said over and over again by many public school DIRECTORS... Give me the same amount of money we now receive and allow me to pick and choose who attends my schools and I will produce the same results as the average private school. I have also talked to many private school people who say they ARE NOT IN FAVOR of a total voucher system because they don't want to accept all of the "Strings" that go along with FEDERAL MONEY. You would have to educate special education students, "405" students, and you won't be able to "Kick students out" who refuse to follow the rules.

 

Also, in the five states that have allowed limited vouchers, they have never offered more than $4200.00 per child. That won't get a student into Notre Dame, McCallie, Baylor, or Boyd!

 

Actually this is a myth ELA...Boyd has about 1 special needs student per 50 enrolled. They employ a full time special needs teacher. Other privates take special needs students too, especially the church based ones. While the larger, more elite prep schools don't do so as often (the academic pace is sometimes to rigorous) I would bet that they have some too.

 

This still doesn't answer the question of where all the money goes. I would contend that there are too many chiefs making sure the teachers comply with all the crazy demands of the Federal Gov. You gotta pay those bigwigs a LOT. What do you think? If we took all the central office people and cut out all but the ones who are needed to maintain daily functions I bet we could trim the budget a lot!

 

I agree, as I posted, that vouchers are not something that I favor. Too much potential for Government oversight. Especially bad for the church based schools...no prayer would pretty much defeat the purpose.

[ELA]

I agree there are way too many people employed at $50K+ at the larger school administrations! I know your school president earns a lot of money but he also coaches football. Most Director of Schools earn over $135K, and each of their major staff members earn over the average principal salaries!

 

When I did my Master's Degree Research, I determined that schools operate more efficiently when the school enrollment was between 400 and 600 students. I think there are fewer problems and those problems they have are more manageable. The problem with public schools is the idea that bigger is better. In Texas, the average high school is over 3000 students and they have between 7 and 10 principals. Anytime you try and manage a school like a business, you lose site of the purpose of education. The best single factor of private education is the smaller student to teacher ratios! The second factor is more discipline. Public schools know this is true but they can't free themselves of Federal laws and local politics that prevent them from solving these two issues.

[std]

An article on the front page of the Tennessean today discussed budget cuts in the Metro Nashville Public School System. In a meeting of a parents advisory committee the parents participating listed after school sports as an area that should be considered for cuts in Middle and High Schools. In large metro areas athletic programs are subsidized by "financial aid" from the tax payors. I doubt very seriously that many Nashville public school sports programs operate in the black. The infamous and apparently public-private forum non-particapant Stan Trott has stated in the past that high school sports programs are immune to budget cuts, that this could never happen. I think that we are on the brink of some serious problems in funding of high school athletics. The rural and smaller county systems probably are self sufficient due to community support. That community support in the metro areas has faded with the large comprehensive schools. ELA stated schools operate more efficiently with student bodies of 400 to 500 students. Not only is the efficiency better, there is a sense of community with the smaller schools. John Q. Tax-payor will not continue to fund athletics at the cost of educational programing. The "financial aid" to some public athletic programs is about to end.