Fuel Costs Force TSSAA Changes

[itzme]

No way a 350 student Brentwood Academy should have been beating a 2,500 student Riverdale in the finals. It wasn't a random large school they beat, it was the best in the state and was a fraction of the size. BA should not have been able to put multiple players into Division 1-A college programs either, on the average, but they somehow did and continue to do so. They need to remain split.

825743330[/snapback]

Wow. Who can argue with that logic!

[rollredroll]

No way a 350 student Brentwood Academy should have been beating a 2,500 student Riverdale in the finals. It wasn't a random large school they beat, it was the best in the state and was a fraction of the size. BA should not have been able to put multiple players into Division 1-A college programs either, on the average, but they somehow did and continue to do so. They need to remain split.

825743330[/snapback]

 

With all due respect to Brentwood Academy, I don't think they would be beating big giant Riverdale now (2004 and 2005 in particular). MBA, which owned DII-AAA through 2003, has struggled with Riverdale as well in the past two preseasons. What has changed?

 

Personally, I beleive that, despite DII's solid record versus DI since 1997, balance of power, particularly at the top, can be cyclical.

 

I wonder if a school like Riverdale would, now, be interested in bringing back the privates to one Division, now that they've been king of the hill in Tennessee for the past two years. Or, is their desire for a split a big picture, philosophical one that is independent of its current superiority on the gridiron?

[itzme]

With all due respect to Brentwood Academy, I don't think they would be beating big giant Riverdale now (2004 and 2005 in particular).  MBA, which owned DII-AAA through 2003, has struggled with Riverdale as well in the past two preseasons. What has changed?

 

Personally, I beleive that, despite DII's solid record versus DI since 1997, balance of power, particularly at the top, can be cyclical. 

 

I wonder if a school like Riverdale would, now, be interested in bringing back the privates to one Division, now that they've been king of the hill in Tennessee for the past two years.  Or, is their desire for a split a big picture, philosophical one that is independent of its current superiority on the gridiron?

825743760[/snapback]

Great question. I've thought about that. I think most would agree that the Warriors have been the best team in any class over the past couple of years.

 

Quality attracts quality. Young men entering high school (and often their parents) who are starry-eyed over football want to play with what they perceive to be the best. Anyone who believes that Riverdale plays strictly with kids who grew up in their zone is kidding themselves. I'm not saying they recruit, I'm saying they don't have to. Where some of these athletes may have gravitated towards a private school years ago, they don't see as much of an advantage in terms of football right now. That, I believe, is a cyclical thing.

 

I don't think the split was engineered entirely in a fit of pique. My opinion is that it was far more intentional and strategic than that, which is bolstered by the subsequent refusal of some of the top 5A programs (particularly in the midstate) to schedule the top DII powers. If they schedule a DII team and lose, well, there goes any rational claim that 5A is the best division. Fortunately, there is not unanimity amongst the public schools on this strategy, and therefore the cycle will eventually turn.

 

IMHO, there will not be a "unification" in the forseeable future. TSSAA is controlled by the public schools, and they see absolutely no upside to it. The real battle, if any, should have taken place when the split was originally proposed. Can you imagine the uproar in Ohio or California if they tried to do a public/private split? Didn't happen in Tennessee, for whatever reason.

 

Dang...I started this thread to poke some fun, I now you made me get all serious!!

Edited September 9, 2005 by itzme

[big red big blue]

Great question.  I've thought about that.  I think most would agree that the Warriors have been the best team in any class over the past couple of years. 

 

Quality attracts quality.  Young men entering high school (and often their parents) who are starry-eyed over football want to play with what they perceive to be the best.  Anyone who believes that Riverdale plays strictly with kids who grew up in their zone is kidding themselves.  I'm not saying they recruit, I'm saying they don't have to.  Where some of these athletes may have gravitated towards a private school years ago, they don't see as much of an advantage in terms of football right now.  That, I believe, is a cyclical thing.

 

I don't think the split was engineered entirely in a fit of pique.  My opinion is that it was far more intentional and strategic than that, which is bolstered by the subsequent refusal of some of the top 5A programs (particularly in the midstate) to schedule the top DII powers.  If they schedule a DII team and lose, well, there goes any rational claim that 5A is the best division.  Fortunately, there is not unanimity amongst the public schools on this strategy, and therefore the cycle will eventually turn.

 

IMHO, there will not be a "unification" in the forseeable future.  TSSAA is controlled by the public schools, and they see absolutely no upside to it.  The real battle, if any, should have taken place when the split was originally proposed.  Can you imagine the uproar in Ohio or California if they tried to do a public/private split?  Didn't happen in Tennessee, for whatever reason.

 

Dang...I started this thread to poke some fun, I now you made me get all serious!!   

825744001[/snapback]

 

and that, my friends, is the core of this debate in a nutshell...

[big red big blue]

No way a 350 student Brentwood Academy should have been beating a 2,500 student Riverdale in the finals. It wasn't a random large school they beat, it was the best in the state and was a fraction of the size. BA should not have been able to put multiple players into Division 1-A college programs either, on the average, but they somehow did and continue to do so. They need to remain split.

825743330[/snapback]

 

people want to play for coaches like Carlton Flatt, Ricky Bowers, Jeff Rutlege, and David Pack over the alternatives offered up by the metro nashville schools. Especially back then. Note how itzme described the process of "success begets success" in a previous post. It has always made me laugh that so many "legendary" Nashville coaches from the 80s and 90s got some sort of free pass to stay at their schools forever, despite never winning anything.

 

I wonder why Riverdale wins so many titles, and a school like McGavock, with a similar # of students has (to my knowledge) never won anything?

Edited September 9, 2005 by big red big blue

[Baldcoach]

No way a 350 student Brentwood Academy should have been beating a 2,500 student Riverdale in the finals. It wasn't a random large school they beat, it was the best in the state and was a fraction of the size. BA should not have been able to put multiple players into Division 1-A college programs either, on the average, but they somehow did and continue to do so. They need to remain split.

825743330[/snapback]

 

Just for the argument's sake let's assume that Brentwood did deserve to be split. Heck, let's assume the worst and say that there was rampant recruiting going on there in the 80s and early 90s. How does that make all privates, or even all financial aid privates deserving of a split.

 

You actually help make my point for me Indian, the big public ADs were ticked about Brentwood primarily, so the made up some bogus mumbo jumbo and tried to kick all the privates out. The small privates protested, so they let us stay, but then decided we deserved to be sanctioned too.

 

Here is my question: If someone is (worst case) doing something illegal to gain an advantage, wouldn't the right thing to do be to sanction that school? How is it right, for example, to punish all financial aid schools because of 1 or 2 schools' activities? And, if the TSSAA is gonna punish groups of schools for what 1 or 2 do, does that mean that if a 3a rural school gets caught cheating that all 3a rural schools should get punished? Because that is what has happened and is happening, regardless of whether 1 school deserved it 15 or 20 years ago.

[lazarus]

"If someone is (worst case) doing something illegal to gain an advantage, wouldn't the right thing to do be to sanction that school? How is it right, for example, to punish all financial aid schools because of 1 or 2 schools' activities?"

 

boiledcoach,

 

have you considered the possibility that it had nothing to do with schools doing illegal acts to overachieve. that your scenario might be 180 degrees off the real rationale? that, just possibly, the whole point is that no illegal action was required for privates to outperform publics?

 

is ya'lls basketball coach going to the oak ridge clinic again?

[Indian]

Just for the argument's sake let's assume that Brentwood did deserve to be split.  Heck, let's assume the worst and say that there was rampant recruiting going on there in the 80s and early 90s.  How does that make all privates, or even all financial aid privates deserving of a split.

 

You actually help make my point for me Indian, the big public ADs were ticked about Brentwood primarily, so the made up some bogus mumbo jumbo and tried to kick all the privates out.  The small privates protested, so they let us stay, but then decided we deserved to be sanctioned too. 

 

Here is my question:  If someone is (worst case) doing something illegal to gain an advantage, wouldn't the right thing to do be to sanction that school?  How is it right, for example, to punish all financial aid schools because of 1 or 2 schools' activities?  And, if the TSSAA is gonna punish groups of schools for what 1 or 2 do, does that mean that if a 3a rural school gets caught cheating that all 3a rural schools should get punished?  Because that is what has happened and is happening, regardless of whether 1 school deserved it 15 or 20 years ago.

825744347[/snapback]

 

I didn't say they cheated. Do you know something I don't? If they weren't cheating, it makes the gap even more glaring.

[Indian]

Completely untrue.  Having everyone, including the current DII together would allow for regions to be, well, regional.

825739760[/snapback]

 

 

Here they are for football, in a split. No more regular season trips from Knoxville or Chattanooga to Memphis, few trips from Memphis to Nashville, if any. David Brainerd has already been to Memphis twice this year. The TSSAA didn't have some of the enrollments, and some may be outdated. Look for something like this in a few years. Basketball, baseball other sports would have even less travel because of more teamss. The longest travel games in those could be played on Fridays, in case of a longer drive back, and creative scheduling such as doubleheaders in baseball, softball, volleyball against 2 different opponents could be done to help limit the longer trips. And with all the teams together, I'd be willing to guess some non TSSAA schools might join so they could play in Division II-A, not have to play a McCallie or Ryan in basketball with an enrollment of less than 100 like they'd have to now.

 

Class A

(to approximately 225)

East:

Chattanooga David Brainerd-?

Knoxville Grace Christian-?

Chattanooga Silverdale Academy-?

Kings Academy (Seymour) 85

Chattanooga Temple-127

Chattanooga Grace Baptist-181

 

Mid-State:

Zion Christian (Columbia) ?

Mt. Juliet Christian (Mt. Juliet) 76

Nashville Christian (Nashville) 170

Clarksville Academy (Clarksville) 180

St. Andrews (Sewanee) 196

Columbia Academy (Columbia) 217

 

West

Rosemark (Millington) ?

SBEC (Southaven) ?

St. George's (Collierville) ?

FACS (Cordova) ?

Lighthouse Christian (Millington) ?

Trinity Christian (Jackson) 131

Bishop Byrne-Memphis-138

Memphis Catholic (Memphis) 180

 

Class A: Yes, unequal teams in the regions, but it's close, 6, 6 and 8 and much better than the miles and miles currently traveled in Division II-A, by the private schools that can least afford it. Coaches could decide how many teams make playoffs, playoff format. An 8-team playoff could have, for example, Columbia Academy at Temple and SBEC vs Trinity in semis, those winners meet in state final. Totally unnecessary for D Brainerd, Sewanee to be going to Memphis and those teams from west going so far east.

 

 

Class AA

(approximately 225 to approximately 500)

 

East:

CAK-Knoxville 249

Boyd-Buchanan-Chattanooga-305

Knoxville Webb 417

Knoxvillle Catholic 426

 

Mid-State

Friendship Christian (Lebanon) 249

CPA (Nashville) 269

Franklin Road Academy (Nashville) 283

Ezell-Harding (Antioch) 289

Davidson Academy (Nashville) 324

DCA (Nashville) 335

Goodpasture (Madison) 377

BGA (Franklin) 393

 

West

Jackson Christian 223

Fayette Academy 225

University School-Jackson 316

St. Benedict-Cordova 413

Harding Academy-Memphis 424

 

Class AA: The mid-state region is much larger, but a solution could be to have 4 teams from it make playoffs, 2 each from east and west. Boyd-Buchanan would have 1 trip to Knoxville one season, 2 the next, similar for USJ and Jax Christian going to the Memphis area. It wouldn't bankrupt their schools, you have public schools going further than that already (Grundy). For an example, semis this year could be BGA at Knoxville Catholic, DCA at Harding. Schools could again figure into how they want the playoffs run. Midstate could also be broken down into 2 regions, based on rivalries, proximity that the teams there know more about than I do. In that case, a runner up could travel to East one year, runner up from the same region travel to Memphis-Jackson the next year, rotate their destination. Champs from both regions would host, naturally.

 

Region AAA

Class AAA 500-level and above

East:

Notre Dame 582

Baylor 607

McCallie 1208

 

Mid-State

Ensworth-Nashville ?

Pope John Paul II ?

Brentwood Academy 337

David Lipscomb 513

MBA 870

Father Ryan 1000

 

West

ECS Cordova-495

Briarcrest (Eads) 556

CBHS (Memphis) 1722

MUS 784

 

Class AAA: This one was a little harder. I moved up Pope JP2 and Ensworth since I've read on here more than once that's their hoped-for destination before too long. I moved up ECS, Lipscomb, Notre Dame, since they're not that much smaller than Baylor and Briarcrest. I don't want to hear financial aid vs non-financial aid, if financial aid gives Baylor an advantage over Notre Dame in football then Baylor is getting students into their school based on their football ability, and that's not supposed to be happening. Playoffs could be 12 teams in, top 4 get a bye first round. Higher rated teams host. Semis this year could be McCallie at MBA, Brentwood Academy at MUS. Teams wouldn't have to travel to and from Nashville, Chattanooga, Memphis in the regular season unless they just wanted to play non-region games against schools of their size, or get top competition for the playoffs.

[itzme]

You make my point. Even with the convoluted way you moved teams around in terms of size, you still end up with a 3 and 4 team AAA "regions". You simply can't make a case that for travel purposes, your proposal is better than bringing all teams back together.

[Indian]

You make my point.  Even with the convoluted way you moved teams around in terms of size, you still end up with a 3 and 4 team AAA "regions".  You simply can't make a case that for travel purposes, your proposal is better than bringing all teams back together.

825747574[/snapback]

 

 

The super 7, I guess 8 now and soon to be 10 maybe, are not moving back into Division I. This would help travel. Isn't that a good thing?

[itzme]

The super 7, I guess 8 now and soon to be 10 maybe, are not moving back into Division I. This would help travel. Isn't that a good thing?

825748004[/snapback]

Well, all I'll say is that you can't make an assuption about a split not being reversed in order to justify a proposed split. I can just as easily state that a complete split will never occur as you can state that the divisions will never be rejoined.