New State Tournament Formats

[texas23]

And some parents will complain about the draw of their kids no matter what. At least with double elimination every kid has a chance to redeem himself, not just the lucky 12 wrestlers who lose to semi-finalists.

 

The quarter-final bracket at 125 from last year's state tournament were brutally set up. There were 4 legit, high-quality wrestlers in that quarter, Usury, Geren, Cope and Fuller. Due to the carry setup only two out of a quarter-final can place. In a true double all four of them could have placed.

 

 

I agree, that was a tough bracket for those guys.....

 

but do you think the one who won the entire bracket, was the right guy? I do.

 

I am not making an argument against a double elimination,,,,,I agree it would let guys back in the tournament that would other wise be eliminated by the carry system currently in place.

 

But you are now not addressing the team issue anymore and it is back to where the others place in the tournament. Usury wrestled very well and was deserving, the others fell off. Usury had the chance to meet a tougher road than most, but he did his thing by beating Geren, a second place medal from the year before and went on to win the final again. I wonder if he would have complained about meeting Geren in the half bracket if he would have lost? Maybe he was suppose to meet easier guys in route?

 

I talked to Geren's dad after his loss, and not one word was said about poor seeding or anything else. And there were plenty of real excuses he could have used, and not one word.

[soms]

And some parents will complain about the draw of their kids no matter what. At least with double elimination every kid has a chance to redeem himself, not just the lucky 12 wrestlers who lose to semi-finalists.

 

The quarter-final bracket at 125 from last year's state tournament were brutally set up. There were 4 legit, high-quality wrestlers in that quarter, Usury, Geren, Cope and Fuller. Due to the carry setup only two out of a quarter-final can place. In a true double all four of them could have placed.

You must admit, 125 was probably by far the hardest weight to seed last season with the likes of Tanner Johnson, ? Boehm, Justin Shanes, J. Gibbs, Jeff Price, Tisdell from C-ville, Andy Morris, and our Brian Dedman all peppered in there. Double elem. would certainly have made things more interesting in that weight class.

 

I agree, that was a tough bracket for those guys.....

 

but do you think the one who won the entire bracket, was the right guy? I do.

 

I am not making an argument against a double elimination,,,,,I agree it would let guys back in the tournament that would other wise be eliminated by the carry system currently in place.

 

But you are now not addressing the team issue anymore and it is back to where the others place in the tournament. Usury wrestled very well and was deserving, the others fell off. Usury had the chance to meet a tougher road than most, but he did his thing by beating Geren, a second place medal from the year before and went on to win the final again. I wonder if he would have complained about meeting Geren in the half bracket if he would have lost? Maybe he was suppose to meet easier guys in route?

 

I talked to Geren's dad after his loss, and not one word was said about poor seeding or anything else. And there were plenty of real excuses he could have used, and not one word.

Winning first under the present system is not an issue in my opinion. Usary 1st and Pair second was no surprise.

Edited December 28, 2006 by soms

[CoachDelgado]

I think both the team issue and individual issue are important. I do not believe they are equally important with the individual medals more important than the team score. I was only stating our sport give points based on placing and winning a match. For the team score, double elimination provides a better measure of team strength than carry.

 

THIS IS FANTASY LAND. I OPENLY ADMIT THIS.

Let us say that team A had three wrestlers carried while team B only had two. Other than the carried wrestler they were identical in every way (however highly unlikely this may be), 3 champions each that pinned through (34 points x 3 = 102 points) , 2 runner-ups that pinned to the finals (28 x 2 = 60 points), 2 3rd placers that pinned in every match but their semi-final losses (22 x 2 = 44 points). Teams A's only other athlete, the one extra that got carried due to luckier placement in the bracket, wins a match in consolation by decision (1 point). Team A wins the team title by one point (207 to 206) because of a lucky carry. Was team A better than B or luckier?

 

I do remember the days of district, regionals and state. I would not mind a regional, substate, state format similar to the one propsed by BayouBear. Perhaps that should be written up from Region 3 and proposed to the state.

Edited December 28, 2006 by CoachDelgado

[PUMMELKING]

Why not go ahead and add a true second. If the better guy deserves a spot let him wrestle for it.

[texas23]

I think both the team issue and individual issue are important. I do not believe they are equally important with the individual medals more important than the team score. I was only stating our sport give points based on placing and winning a match. For the team score, double elimination provides a better measure of team strength than carry.

 

THIS IS FANTASY LAND. I OPENLY ADMIT THIS.

Let us say that team A had three wrestlers carried while team B only had two. Other than the carried wrestler they were identical in every way (however highly unlikely this may be), 3 champions each that pinned through (34 points x 3 = 102 points) , 2 runner-ups that pinned to the finals (28 x 2 = 60 points), 2 3rd placers that pinned in every match but their semi-final losses (22 x 2 = 44 points). Teams A's only other athlete, the one extra that got carried due to luckier placement in the bracket, wins a match in consolation by decision (1 point). Team A wins the team title by one point (207 to 206) because of a lucky carry. Was team A better than B or luckier?

 

I do remember the days of district, regionals and state. I would not mind a regional, substate, state format similar to the one propsed by BayouBear. Perhaps that should be written up from Region 3 and proposed to the state.

 

 

I agree that the team score should be very secondary to the individual performance. I would also argue that even in the double elimination, there would still be issues and disgruntled wrestlers who got the guy who lost in the chamionship bracket by one point (an upset) and then faced a guy in the wrestle back bracket who should have placed (based on seeding). Now, you have the same type of scenario.

 

It is fantasy land to believe you can "fix" the system. However, it could be made "better" by a system like the one Bayou Bear spent time putting together. Wrestlers still have to get on the mat and perform, and giving second chances semms to be the answer. but if you get beat by a guy and then he loses, should you still be in the tournament? The reason I ask is that I can see the premise behind the way the current system was devised, however flawed and unfair it may seem.

[soms]

Double Elimination is the way to even the scales.

[tnwrestler1]

yeah i agree are they going to change it

[maj]

yeah i agree are they going to change it

 

Double elimination gets talked about every year and every year the idea gets scrapped with no action taken. Status quo seems to work best for those in charge. I have never heard ANY coach or wrestler say they were not in favor of a double elimination tournament. I suspect an online survey of active coaches and wrestlers would confirm my assumption that support for double elimination state tournament is virtually 100% among participants. This seems like an easy fix, with less effort than the stroke of a pen THIS year's state tourney could be double elimination. There doesn't seem to be a downside and I have yet to hear a credible argument against changing the format.

 

Does anybody have any thoughts on what it would take to make this change a reality ??

[dad45]

Overton's heavywieght was eliminated last year because of the carry system ,and I have heard stories of top seeded wrestlers getting put out also. Double elimination would be great . This is coming from a parent that watched his son not go to state because of the new fourth place finish rule .You realy can't call it a wild card because its not based on the wrestlers record. As a parent we want an even playing field for our children. They aren't getting it now . No other state has a system like ours it would be nice to here why it is in place and how it was concieved .

[texas23]

Overton's heavywieght was eliminated last year because of the carry system .

 

 

I think he was eliminated because he lost....

[dad45]

I think he was eliminated because he lost....

He was beaten first round by a wrestler that was not ranked . Brandon was ranked .The point that I was trying to make with out getting long winded was a top seeded wrestler can be put out early if they take someone for granted . It being a carry system the young man he lost to was beat hince the elimination .If it would have been double elimination Brandon would have wrestled consulations and might have placed .( note I said might ) But your right if he had not lost he would have went on and been a state champ.

[noonesfool]

Top seeded wrestlers can never take anyone for granted, particularly at heavey weight. In a sport that works to eliminate wrestlers to get to the final few he did not do his job. We get too hyped up over seeded wrestlers. We sometimes have to acknowledge that there are young guns out there as well as wrestlers who have the tourneys of their life. Thats where that ole football slogan "on any given friday" applys here.

Edited December 30, 2006 by noonesfool