Public's should not play private schools

[jvaughan]

The fallacy is that most people think that all private schools are alike. They aren't.

 

IMHO. Here are 3 basic reasons why I don't want to play just other private schools.

 

In order to compete with the D2 private schools, a D1 private schools would have to offer financial aid. That would require additional funds which would have to come from somewhere. I have been on a private school board and tuition is where 99% of funding comes from. There is a huge difference in the operating model of the schools like CPA, DCA, Goodpasture and Lipscomb and schools like MBA, Ensworth, BA and Baylor.

 

Secondly, travel is much greater in D2 because schools are generally concentrated in Nashville, Chattanooga, Memphis and Knoxville. In football, it would be an issue mostly during the playoffs but in other sports like baseball, softball, soccer and basketball you have mid-week games where travel can be a problem. The problem with travel is money and safety.

 

Thirdly, facilities. Have you seen the facilities at MBA or Baylor or Ensworth? Compare their facilities to CPA, DCA, Goodpasture or Lipscomb. To compete on a level playing field, one would assume that facilities should at least be in the same universe. That would cost more money.

 

My biggest problem with "private schools playing only other private schools" is this. The TSSAA is a voluntary organization of secondary schools. Not an organization of public schools but a organization for all secondary schools who are approved for admission. One group (public schools) decides that the rules need to change because the playing field is not level. (Apparently, it was not a problem from 1925 until around 1995) So, the public school faction banishes a subset of their members to another division where they can ignore them. Then, a multiplier rule is passed so that smaller private schools are classified with larger public schools.

 

Majority rules? Well, the majority of Americans thought segregation was OK and the law of the law was changed because it was the right thing to do.

 

In the case of the TSSAA, they did the wrong thing with creating D2. They did the wrong thing by creating the multiplier rule. And (IMHO) they will do the wrong thing in 2 years when they banish all private schools to D2.

 

I post something similar to this epistle about every 6 months by the way.

 

 

The thing about the facilities not being in the same universe is funny. Have you seen the facilities of AAA school like Jackson Central-Merry? Of course you haven't because they don't have one! Yet University School of Jackson has a state of the art, gosh knows how many square foot facility. That argument won't fly cause I would be willing to bet that D1 privates in Nashville (DCA, CPA, etc.) have a lot nicer facilities than the publics.

 

The travel argument I can agree with to an extent. Where I don't agree with it is when a 4A school like Henry County has to travel across West Tenn to play a region opponent in football.

 

And the reason every thing was peachy from 1925-1995 is because there wasn't the sudden flight to private schools then like it is now.

[Bighurt]

QUOTE(Indian @ Nov 15 2007 ??“ 07:58 PM)Yes, and CPA, DCA, Goodpasture would be in a smaller classification, most likely, and not have to compete with the others mentioned for championships. Lipscomb, with around 550 students, possibly could be in the highest class but I can't see them not being competitive and winning their share in just about every sport.

 

Competing in a smaller classification in a financial aid division. That means that schools can and will provide financial aid. Thus, the cost of competing goes up because you are forced to play in a financial aid division.

 

I think I bring this up about once a month. All teams in, even in two different classes, the travel decreases and there would be Knoxville area, Chattanooga area, midstate, Nashville area, Jackson area and Memphis area districts in a small class, Knoxville-Chattanooga, Nashville and Memphis districts in a large class.

 

I agree somewhat. Like I said, it is not a issue with schools in urban areas until the playoffs but it is a problem with basketball where you play 25 games mostly and softball/baseball where you play 20 games mostly during the week.

 

See the first answer.

 

See my first response.

 

Some of the schools with top athletic programs now were only in their first or second decade of existence in 1995, others had relatively recently added football. Given time to build, you see the results. The TSSAA classifies based on population right now, with a divider for financial aid, those two criteria are based on the competition imbalance that formerly resulted when all were together. Why would a complete split be any different when you can see the regular season and postseason results, year after year?

 

MBA has been around for over 100 years. Ryan, McCallie, Baylor, MUS and CBHS have been around at least 50 years each. BA started in 1969. Ensworth High School is 4 years old - so that is one.

 

By the way among D1 privates, FRA 1971, DCA -1971, Goodpasture - 1966, Ezell - 1973, CPA -1985 - that's two that were in their first or second decade of existence in 1995.

 

MBA did not win a state championship in football between 1968 and 1997 after D2 was established. McCallie and MUS never won in football before D2. Ryan and CBHS won one each.

 

The root of the problem which led to the creation of D2 is Brentwood Academy. D2 was created primarily because of BA winning 5A football back-to-back. That was the major competition inbalance before D2 was created.

[Bighurt]

The thing about the facilities not being in the same universe is funny. Have you seen the facilities of AAA school like Jackson Central-Merry? Of course you haven't because they don't have one! Yet University School of Jackson has a state of the art, gosh knows how many square foot facility. That argument won't fly cause I would be willing to bet that D1 privates in Nashville (DCA, CPA, etc.) have a lot nicer facilities than the publics.

 

The travel argument I can agree with to an extent. Where I don't agree with it is when a 4A school like Henry County has to travel across West Tenn to play a region opponent in football.

 

And the reason every thing was peachy from 1925-1995 is because there wasn't the sudden flight to private schools then like it is now.

 

I was comparing the facilities of D1 private schools to D2 private schools not public schools.

 

BTW. Who do you think pays for facilities at private schools such as USJ's? Their facilities don't hold a candle to Ensworth's, MBA's, Baylor's or McCallie's.

 

"Sudden flight" or more aptly "white flight" started way before 1995 in most urban areas.

[Indian]

Regardless of aid, there's no current Division II Class A school that would be too much, on the average, for most current Division I, small school type, privates. Again, your CPAs and Boyd-Buchanans would be in with BGA and St George, not Brentwood Academy and McCallie.

 

When I mention the new schools and ones who've been successful relatively recently I meant the smaller ones for the most part.

 

Travel still wouldn't be a problem even in basketball and baseball. The only time it might be would be in a Knoxville to Chattanooga drive or the large schools, but Webb currently manages it already, so do Baylor, McCallie and GPS. Notre Dame and Catholic might be thrown in there but that's at most three such trips for the Knoxville schools, two for the Chattanooga schools (McCallie and GPS could be played the same night). Lots of teams already schedule that far away anyway, for non-district games against tough opponents and in playdays.

 

Here's what a Division II, Class A, might look like:

 

District 1: (5) Knoxville Grace, Knoxville Christian, CAK, J Frank White, King’s Academy

District 2: (6) Chattanooga Grace, Silverdale Academy, Temple, Boyd-Buchanan, Chattanooga Christian, David Brainerd

District 3: (6) Boyd-Christian, St. Andrew's Sewanee, Columbia Academy, Zion Christian, Webb, Middle Tennessee Christian

District 4: (7) Mt Juliet Christian, College Heights, Goodpasture, Friendship Christian, CPA, Ezell-Harding, Donelson Christian

District 5: (8) Clarksville Academy, BGA, Davidson Academy, St. Cecilia, University School, Nashville Christian, David Lipscomb, Franklin Road Academy

District 6: (5) Carroll Academy, Jackson Christian, Trinity Christian, Fayette Academy, Jackson University School

District 7: (5) Lighthouse Christian, First Assembly, Rossville Christian, Tipton-Rosemark, St. George's

District 8: (6) SBEC, Immaculate Conception, Memphis Catholic, Lausanne, Elliston Baptist, Bishop Byrne

 

Here's what a Division II, Class AA might look like:

East: Baylor, GPS, McCallie, Webb, Knoxville Catholic, Notre Dame

Middle: Brentwood Academy, Ensworth, Ryan, Harpeth Hall, John Paul II, MBA, Lipscomb

West: Briarcrest, CBHS, ECS, Hutchison, MUS, St. Agnes, St. Benedict, St. Mary’s

[realsoccer]

Are you trying to say it's impossible to tell who has talent among sixth graders?

 

 

Of course not. I would generally ask both parents to run a timed 40 , ask them to bench press their weight (their own, that is) and do 75 push ups in one minute. For good measure and to make sure the kid was "our kind", I would ask both parents to recite the periodic table from memory. I would then take a hair from the prospective athlete er I mean student so our staff geneticist could test it to determine his parentage. You don't want to take a chance on bad genes. Sometimes I would run a credit check on them because you don't want any riffraff sneaking in. If everything checked out, the school would generally ask for title to the family's house just in case the sixth grader reneged on his contract to participate in athletics. You know some of those sixth graders have been known to change their minds about sports. Lastly, we would require that the parents and child sign a CoachT non disclosure agreement which means they couldn't post a message about it on this site. And that's why this is probably the first time you've heard about it.

[JaxMan]

We could pick at the words in the code all day...for example....all private school students recieve need based financial aid to go to private school...(its not free). And it is over and above what is provided by the public school system. But I'm not here to fight about words but rather to deal with what has become a glaring issue.

Why are private schools so reluctant to play amongst themselves when it comes to state championships? This question has continiously been dodged on here....WHY?

 

 

private schools do not mind playing other private schools for championships..last year JCS played FCS for one in class 1A...what privates in Division 1 do not want to do is to play schools who offer aide to atheletes...Division 1 privates do not and Division 2 privates do...it really is simple...everyone says the playing field is not level for publics so their answer is to throw all privates together even though that still leaves an unlevel playing field...put all non aid privates together and I am fine with it...maybe you should throw in open zone publics since they are really just private schools...then you would have true publics together...non aid privates and open zone publics both which offer no aid but are not limited by zones and then privates who give aid...everyone would then be in a division of like schools...but don't talk about fair if you don't want to be fair to all schools...

[Baldcoach]

The fallacy with this argument, as with all your agruments, is that you only want to deal with the outer fringe of the situation and run from the the heart of it.

And how dare you insinuate I am a racist! You better go check the race ratio of students in public vs private schools. And while you are at it you might go back and read the dozens of posts by private school supporters that list the same things as I listed to you as benifits to the private schools. You better get a whole lot better argument if you hope to convince anyone!

 

 

Wow, I thought I was being clear.

 

I accused you of being prejudiced against private schools, not a racist. What I said was the language you and others use in your posts about private schools is the same as was used racially in the 60s...thus illustrating prejudice. Just to be clear, people can hold many prejudices about a great many things without being racist.

 

I agreed with one of your points, you haven't addressed mine at all, so who is running from which argument?

 

Let me recap:

 

Your argument for seperation is that ALL privates have insurmountable advantages over ALL publics.

 

I replied that if you could name 3 that would be great, otherwise your argument is down in flames.

 

You said 1) Better students (2) Less violence and (3) More parental involvement.

 

I replied that (1) was certainly NOT true of all privates vs all publics, the DI small privates are not academically selective like the prep schools, thus there are many publics who have just as good a group of students on average as the small privates. (2) was patently not true, as it implies that ALL publics have a violence problem, which we both know is an exageration. It also implies that no private experiences violence, which is also not true. I then agreed that (3) was probably true for most privates vs. most publics. I explained that (1) and (2) could be applied as well using suburban publics vs inner city publics as using privates and publics so my original assertion remains...there aren't 3 advantages that the DI privates have AS A GROUP over the publics AS A GROUP.

 

You then accused me of running from the argument. I'm not running from it, I'm standing squarely in front of it smashing it to bits. You are welcome to provide 2 more advantages that DI privates as a group have over publics as a group if you can, but we both know that this post was just a smokescreen to take the light off the fact that it can't be done.

 

Now, here is a counter argument. I contend that there is a group of publics that has ALL the advantages of the small privates with NONE of the tuition disadvantages. And I contend that they are not being split or multiplied simply because they are public. Further, I contend that as a group they have dominated Football in all classes for the last 6 years, and will continue to dominate it this year and into the forseeable future as no private ever has or will. If all the talk about DII, the multiplier, and splitting the privates is NOT prejudice, why are these schools getting off scott free?

[Baldcoach]

The thing about the facilities not being in the same universe is funny. Have you seen the facilities of AAA school like Jackson Central-Merry? Of course you haven't because they don't have one! Yet University School of Jackson has a state of the art, gosh knows how many square foot facility. That argument won't fly cause I would be willing to bet that D1 privates in Nashville (DCA, CPA, etc.) have a lot nicer facilities than the publics.

 

In some cases you are right and in some you are wrong...most of the DI privates struggle financially and don't have as nice facilities as the small publics. The exceptions are probably the Nashville schools, but there is a lot more money in Nashville than anywhere else in the state.

 

And the reason every thing was peachy from 1925-1995 is because there wasn't the sudden flight to private schools then like it is now.

 

Almost all of the current DI crop of privates were in existence in the 80s and had been around for years. The reason there wasn't a problem is the publics were killing most of them in most sports. Once a few got good the screaming started. Amazingly, the best Football schools in the state are still publics. You would think the privates were by the rhetoric that gets thrown around on here lol.

[Bighurt]

We aren't going to agree. Your assumption is that the only solution is to separate the private schools from the public schools and I don't agree. I think that the creation of D2 and the 1.8 multiplier were poorly planned knee-jerk reactions conceived by a group lead by Riverdale's principal and a group lead by Collinwood's principal, respectively.

 

If you want a level playing field, what is wrong with a merit system? On the other hand if you want to banish/punish all private schools because some schools have had success in football and they have nice facilities, the TSSAA is doing a great job in my opinion.

 

This discussion is all academic any way. Come 2009, all private schools will be sent to D2. So, you will get what you want. It doesn't matter that it is the wrong thing to do. The public schools have the votes so that is what is going to happen.

[COUNTRYBOY]

Public high school football is the purest form of the sport.

[jvaughan]

I was comparing the facilities of D1 private schools to D2 private schools not public schools.

 

BTW. Who do you think pays for facilities at private schools such as USJ's? Their facilities don't hold a candle to Ensworth's, MBA's, Baylor's or McCallie's.

 

"Sudden flight" or more aptly "white flight" started way before 1995 in most urban areas.

 

 

I know you were comparing D1 privates to D2 privates but you stated that one of the reasons you did not want D1 privates playing with D2 privates is because of facilities. So how is it "fair" for publics who don't have any facilites to play against D1 privates that do. While USJ and any other alphabet school up your way don't have facilities that compare to Ensworth, etc., the publics are in the same boat vs. the D1 privates.

 

And I would guess that Mommy and Daddy pay for them either as a booster or obviously tuition. So what is the point to having that stated? Just another advantage that privates have over publics. Private school parents can afford to pay 5,000-15,000 (however much it is) a year for school and give some more on top while public school parents make minimum wage and struggle to pay the phone bill.

 

And while the white flight did start before that, the flight to private schools not so much as it is now.

 

Baldcoach,

I would say that in most cases, I am right. While yes there are less privates in my part of the state, out of the 4 in my area (USJ, JCS, TCA, and Fayette Academy, (I leave Memphis out like almost everybody else from West Tenn)) I know USJ has a great facility, JCS has a 2-4 year old field house that is great, TCA has a brand new facility, and I haven't been to FA in 5 years so not to sure about it. The point is that all three privates in Jackson are way ahead of the three public high schools. And I would be willing to guess it isn't any different up in Nashville.

[Baldcoach]

Baldcoach,

I would say that in most cases, I am right. While yes there are less privates in my part of the state, out of the 4 in my area (USJ, JCS, TCA, and Fayette Academy, (I leave Memphis out like almost everybody else from West Tenn)) I know USJ has a great facility, JCS has a 2-4 year old field house that is great, TCA has a brand new facility, and I haven't been to FA in 5 years so not to sure about it. The point is that all three privates in Jackson are way ahead of the three public high schools. And I would be willing to guess it isn't any different up in Nashville.

 

In the East the opposite is true. The DI privates as a rule have poorer facilities than the publics they play. I am curious...how do the facilities at USJ and JCS stack up to Milan and Huntingdon? Not in how new they are but in the total facility? I would expect at least JCS's facilities to be relatively new. Having never been to either Milan or Huntingdon, I don't know what kind of facilities they have, but I bet they are more than adequate...after all, both are consistently powerful programs.

 

We played at a public 2a school in the playoffs that is a fine program...they were very proud of their new indoor facility lol. We just made the first upgrade to our field in 25 years last year by building new locker rooms for the Home and visitors and installing new bleachers (the old ones seated 800 home and 450 visitor...we were averaging 2800 or so per game). We share the game field with Girl's Soccer, Middle school Football, and Middle school Girls and Guys soccer in the fall, and Varsity Guys Soccer in the Spring because there isn't another one. How many 2a publics do you know that have to share their gamefield with multiple other teams b/c they don't have the facilities? I don't know of any...

 

So, while it is safe to say that some DI privates have better facilities than some DI publics, it is also safe to say that the opposite is true. Which, of course, means that any argument for advantage for either side b/c of superior facilities is invalid.