Public's should not play private schools

[big red big blue]

rick--

You talk about making efforts to heal the rift and I agree with you...the only problem is, the public side has no incentive to change anything. They are much better off as they are now, so what upside do they have in accomodating us? A few years ago, the MBA headmaster Brad Gioia wrote a letter to the TSSAA (which he sent copies of to all MBA alums) describing all the work MBA had done to help promote athletics in the city of Nashville--sharing facilities, helping build gyms, hosting coaching clinics, co-hosting camps, etc.--in order to demonstrate what good citizens we've been, and that such effort should be rewarded with some sort of reconciliation. And in reality, there were (at the time) a bunch of metro schools willing to work towards something...and then there's a guy like Ron Adeylott at Hillsboro (at the time) who publicly comes out and says "we won't play any of those schools that recruit." So a successful coach in this state can just declare that we "recruit" and that that's grounds not to play us. So how many people think like that?

 

With that said, I am appreciative of the schools--Ravenwood, Independence, Hillsboro (under a new coach from California), Smyrna, Antioch, etc.--who have recently agreed to play us in D2. 4 years ago, MBA didn't have a single game with a Tennessee public school. IF this trend continues, then I'm satisfied with what we have...I think the best idea is what you described as public/private regions with combined regular seasons and separate post-seasons. That way, we would have high quality local football. Attendance would be up, no one would be burdened with extra travel, and no one could blame the other side for claiming its play-off spots. But it will have to be forced down the throats of the public schools, the majority of whom are more than happy with the current arrangement.

[Bighurt]

Wow. I had a feeling that I shouldn't get in on this discussion.

 

Bighurt, I invite you to look at some more pictures from 2006 before you start jumping to conclusions and accusing people you don't really know of being petty. In 2006, there were three Division II championship games (A, AA, and AAA) It is the Division II-AAA game that BA won. On Sportspix, you can look at pictures from the other Division II championship games as well as the Division I championship games from 2006. Mr. Carter was also present for the Division II-AA game (see picture 1245 of 1296) and the Division II-A game (see picture 763 of 837). BA and Coach Flatt were not involved in those games. Mr. Carter didn't hand out the team trophies or coaches plaques for those games either. In all of those games, the trophies and plaques were handed out either by representatives of Blue Cross, who sponsored the games, or by a member of the TSSAA Board of Control (Mike Tribue -- a public school principal). Then check out the 2006 Division I championship photos. I can assure you that Mr. Carter was there, but I believe you will find pictures of other individuals handing out team trophies and coaches' plaques. The fact is that Mr. Carter has handed out plenty of plaques and trophies over the years. Whenever there is someone present who is a representative of the bowl sponsor or a Board of Control member who would like to hand out the trophies or plaques, Mr. Carter defers to that person. It is pretty easy to understand why Blue Cross, as the bowl sponsor, wanted one of its representatives to hand the championship hardware to BA and its record-setting coach in 2006.

 

This is exactly what I've been talking about earlier -- jumping to incorrect conclusions based on incomplete information. The sad thing for Mr. Carter is that for years he has gotten this from both sides. There are some public school proponents out there who have long accused him of being a defender and apologist for private schools. Unfortunately, this public/private debate is too often characterized by folks who feel slighted on both sides, who always find their glass half-empty, who start with a preconceived premise and then look no further once they see a fact that they think supports that premise. It would be a lot easier to debate, discuss, and analyze the real issues if so much time and effort didn't have to be spent dispelling these sorts of misguided conclusions.

 

While Mr. Carter's deferral to a Blue Cross representative in 2006 had nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that it was BA and Coach Flatt that won that particular game, I do want to address your suggestion that consideration of that fact would have been "petty." In 1997, there were actually two lawsuits that were filed in connection with the BA situation (three if you count the Bart King lawsuit that Coach Flatt's lawyer procured). BA filed its lawsuit in federal court. That is the one that was fought for ten years. BA didn't just sue TSSAA. BA also sued Ronnie Carter personally and sought damages from him that, if awarded, could have led to his own personal financial ruin. In addition, Carlton Flatt filed and pursued his own lawsuit in state court against both TSSAA and Ronnie Carter personally, seeking damages for defamation of character. At the time the Blue Cross Bowl was played in 2006, the BA lawsuit was still going on. BA had won in the Court of Appeals, and there was no word yet whether the Supreme Court would hear the case. In that posture, TSSAA was potentially on the hook for millions of dollars in attorneys fees that BA would seek if it won, in addition to the years of legal expense that TSSAA had already incurred defending the case. I suspect that if any one of us were subjected to those sorts of claims and the threat of personal financial ruin, we would be hard pressed to suppress adverse feelings toward those asserting the claims. The photo of Mr. Carter shaking Coach Flatt's hand on the field, when considered against this backdrop, suggests to me that it would be much more appropriate to commend him for having the character to conduct himself professionally despite that backdrop.

 

I apologize for my use of the word "petty". That was a poor choice of words.

 

I do think that perception among BA supporters is an issue. He presented a plaque to McGugin in 2007 but someone else presented the plaque to Coach Flatt in 2006. I assumed one thing. You are telling me my conclusions are misguided. That's fine. It certainly would not be the first time.

 

Yes, I know about the lawsuits in general terms. If Mr. Carter had snubbed Coach Flatt, I could certainly understand why he would do so.

 

And yes, I agree that Mr. Carter catches it from both sides. He does not have a easy job.

[Bighurt]

Bighurt: On an old question you raised, in the last year and a half Ronnie Carter has granted 49 "hardship" exceptions to student-athletes at private schools. Most "hardship" cases, whether at public or private schools, involve kids who are otherwise ineligible under the transfer rule. I realize this doesn't fully answer your question, but I am spending too much time on this message board already. I don't have the time to dig deeper to get all the details for you.

 

That's fine. I will have to assume your numbers are correct. As promised, I won't bring up the issue again.

[rick7425]

rick--

You talk about making efforts to heal the rift and I agree with you...the only problem is, the public side has no incentive to change anything. They are much better off as they are now, so what upside do they have in accomodating us?

 

brbb: There is no question that there are people on both sides of the public/private divide who would like to keep the schools separate. Unfortunately, too much emphasis is now placed on winning a "championship" instead of on competing in more general terms. The old days (I realize what an old man I am when I use that term) of the great local or neighborhood rivalries are almost gone, and that is a shame in my view. I remember when my high school was thought of as a local basketball power, and we never won a state championship -- only made it to the finals once in those days. There are more championship opportunities with all the different classifications, so it is now relatively easier to get there. The result is that winning or not winning a "state championship" becomes more the measure of success. And then people start trying to figure out how to maximize their chances of doing so, and that becomes too much of a driving force in the debate.

 

But I think the public school educators do indeed have incentives to change. It is good for kids to be exposed to all different sorts of environments. From an athletic standpoint, it is good for teams to be exposed to levels of competition that they might not get with separation. Some private schools offer opportunities to compete in first class facilities that public school players otherwise may not get to enjoy. With the loss of neighborhood schools in some of the metropolitan areas (where private schools are more prominent), private schools set good examples of "community" support that public schools can use to try to model themselves after. Maybe public schools don't "need" private schools, but there is no question that in these and other ways, public schools would benefit from competition in athletics with private schools, and the exposure to one another that comes with that competition. I think a lot of folks at public schools, like the ones you mentioned, understand that.

[BigG]

Mr. Carter has never been to the trophy presentation for the soccer state finals (Mr. Beck has always presided) I guess that means that Mr. Carter hates soccer! (said with tongue in cheek). Sometimes I think we look too closely at peoples "motives".

[itzme]

Mr. Carter has never been to the trophy presentation for the soccer state finals (Mr. Beck has always presided) I guess that means that Mr. Carter hates soccer! (said with tongue in cheek). Sometimes I think we look too closely at peoples "motives".

 

I've never seen him present the trophy at Basketball or Track & Field either. To the best of my recollection, however, he has presented the trophy to the DII AA(or old AAA) Football champion every year except last year. I'm glad he decided to resume the practice. I do not believe he is an evil or vindictive man. Just human.

 

BRBB - I do feel that as some of the "old line" coaches at the DI schools retire, move away, or simply get over it, and are replaced by younger coaches that don't perceive so much baggage, there is much more willingness to schedule the DII teams. That is a great trend, and puts in place a lot of really good local rivalries instead of travelling to KY or IL to play sometimes mediocre teams. As you stated, if this trend continues, DII really isn't that bad as it once was.

[big red big blue]

BRBB - I do feel that as some of the "old line" coaches at the DI schools retire, move away, or simply get over it, and are replaced by younger coaches that don't perceive so much baggage, there is much more willingness to schedule the DII teams. That is a great trend, and puts in place a lot of really good local rivalries instead of travelling to KY or IL to play sometimes mediocre teams. As you stated, if this trend continues, DII really isn't that bad as it once was.

 

I agree...it is interesting though. After the Hillsboro game, the Hillsboro coach said words to the effect of "we'll see if this is something we want to continue after the current 2-year deal is up." It blew my mind...the game was a dead-even nail-biter, and from what I heard, it was the biggest crowd MBA had had in years. Supposedly the stadium was overflowing an hour before kick-off...and Hillsboro will get to enjoy that next year. And if they win that game, that's the ultimate in bragging rights. You knocked off the neighborhood bully. IF you lose, just claim they recruit. It's all upside...so why wouldn't you want to do it? But what it reveals mostly is that we are completely at their mercy in scheduling this game. However good it is for all parties, ultimately it is 100% their choice.

 

it's why it baffles me that Brentwood High won't play BA. You actually wrote it on here years ago and its still true: many of those big D1 coaches would rather pretend we don't exist and fuel the myth that D1 is better than D2 than actually lay it on the line on the field and find out one way or the other.

[itzme]

I agree...it is interesting though. After the Hillsboro game, the Hillsboro coach said words to the effect of "we'll see if this is something we want to continue after the current 2-year deal is up." It blew my mind...the game was a dead-even nail-biter, and from what I heard, it was the biggest crowd MBA had had in years. Supposedly the stadium was overflowing an hour before kick-off...and Hillsboro will get to enjoy that next year. And if they win that game, that's the ultimate in bragging rights. You knocked off the neighborhood bully. IF you lose, just claim they recruit. It's all upside...so why wouldn't you want to do it? But what it reveals mostly is that we are completely at their mercy in scheduling this game. However good it is for all parties, ultimately it is 100% their choice.

 

it's why it baffles me that Brentwood High won't play BA. You actually wrote it on here years ago and its still true: many of those big D1 coaches would rather pretend we don't exist and fuel the myth that D1 is better than D2 than actually lay it on the line on the field and find out one way or the other.

 

I think we all know why BHS doesn't play BA. Talk about a coach who has a legacy of anti-DII sentiment! Probably would not have been a very good game the past several years, but it would definitely draw a crowd. Frankly, I think that decision hurt BHS a lot more than it hurt BA. Ravenwood will continue their ascent as the best DI football program in the county, despite a poor season this year.

 

Most coaches today recognize that the better their competition is, the farther thay will go in the playoffs. One needs only to examine the record to see that. Another factor for the Wilco teams to schedule BA is the opportunity to be the first county team to beat them. It's going to happen sooner or later, that's for sure.

[itzme]

Most coaches today recognize that the better their competition is, the farther thay will go in the playoffs. One needs only to examine the record to see that.

 

 

Hmmm. First time I've ever quoted myself in a post, but with a Smyrna vs. Independence 5A Final this year, it becomes more clear than ever. So next year BA will play both 5A finalists for the second year in a row. I love that!! /hungry.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":hungry:" border="0" alt="hungry.gif" />

[WarriorFan]

I think we all know why BHS doesn't play BA. Talk about a coach who has a legacy of anti-DII sentiment! Probably would not have been a very good game the past several years, but it would definitely draw a crowd. Frankly, I think that decision hurt BHS a lot more than it hurt BA. Ravenwood will continue their ascent as the best DI football program in the county, despite a poor season this year.

 

Most coaches today recognize that the better their competition is, the farther thay will go in the playoffs. One needs only to examine the record to see that. Another factor for the Wilco teams to schedule BA is the opportunity to be the first county team to beat them. It's going to happen sooner or later, that's for sure.

Ravenwood lost 4 games by a combined 8 points.....

[wbcsoccerstud11]

Maybe DII could be limited to football (which seems to be the sport where the difference in views is most concentrated).

 

 

well all the private schools win all the small school state championships soccer 5 in a row private girls soccer is the same way, baseball always won by private, so it is not just football

in these other sports i think the privates if playing the publics should compete in 3A with the big schools in football group them however

[rick7425]

well all the private schools win all the small school state championships soccer 5 in a row private girls soccer is the same way, baseball always won by private, so it is not just football

in these other sports i think the privates if playing the publics should compete in 3A with the big schools in football group them however

 

Why do you suppose private schools have been successful in recent years in Division I A/AA girls soccer? And how successful do you think those girls soccer teams would have been in Division I AAA?