Public's should not play private schools

[Bighurt]

BTW, Bighurt, you may know who I am, but I would just as soon keep my anonymity like everyone else here.

 

I agree.

[Bighurt]

I used to own a passel of houses in east nashville. Once the area turned around, couldnt resist selling for the profits.

 

Where you in school while you lived there? Where did you go? Dont answer if you dont want to, just got lots of friends in that area. I think I'm probably older than you so we probably never crossed paths, but my have some common friends.

 

I went to Dalewood Elementary and Stratford graduated in 1968 - so I am older tha dirt. My parents moved to Preston Driive while I was in college.

[SwamiSays]

I went to Dalewood Elementary and Stratford graduated in 1968 - so I am older tha dirt. My parents moved to Preston Driive while I was in college.

 

 

Stratford was a much different place back then, wasnt it? I was in metro around that time, as a teacher and administrator. Left soon after that. I used to work some deals with Buster Boguski before he passed.

[Bighurt]

Stratford was a much different place back then, wasnt it? I was in metro around that time, as a teacher and administrator. Left soon after that. I used to work some deals with Buster Boguski before he passed.

 

I graduated with Buster's daughter, Gail. In fact, I ran in to Gail's husband, Jim Wilson, recently up in Goodlettsville.

[Baldcoach]

All you Nashville people are killing me! I liked Nashville while I was there...but in rush hour traffic I can get anywhere in the 'nooga in 20 minutes (and my house cost about a third of what it would be in the 'ville) /thumb[1].gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumb:" border="0" alt="thumb[1].gif" />

 

I would like to go on record and state that I think RC really tries to mitigate some of the animosity directed at privates by the public cabal at the TSSAA. I remember that he was personally against DII...I also remember that the straw that broke the camel's back was not just BA winning their second 5a championship, but the fact that multiple reports (some from private schools) were coming in about rampant recruiting there AND McCallie got caught with their hand in the wrestling cookie jar and sued the TSSAA about their punishment even though they had obviously violated many rules.

 

I would have been fed up (and I was at the time) with that kind of behavior too...especially if I was a public school AD on the TSSAA Board.

 

It is sad to me that a lynch mob mentality developed, however, and it is particularly tragic that it has continued to this day. At the time (and ever since) I believed that the specific schools that were caught should have been SEVERLY punished (they were punished...not too severly) but that the other privates should have been left alone. Why? Because it is never fair to punish the group for what a few have done. Moreover, it is nothing but stereotyping and prejudice to assume that because a few schools of a particular type or location are cheating that ALL similar schools are too. But that is the basis of DII, the multiplier and current split talk...if a few of (name the school type: aid giving private, non-aid private, magnet, open zoned, etc.) are better than average they all must have cheated or have advantages over all the other schools.

 

That is the mindset that leads to witch hunts and lynchings. It is something we should all fight against. The TSSAA should treat member schools on their merits and behavior individually...severly punish both publics and privates who cheat while leaving the rest alone. Instead they have consistently punished privates as a group for percieved injustices. It is the equivalent of a teacher giving all the boys in a class F's in conduct because a couple misbehave while handing out demerits for individual girls who misbehave and claiming "we all know how boys are" to justify the actions.

[SwamiSays]

I graduated with Buster's daughter, Gail. In fact, I ran in to Gail's husband, Jim Wilson, recently up in Goodlettsville.

 

 

Buster did lots of good for Nashville and he sure loved Stratford. Jim is a great guy as well. He wasnt treated too well by Goodpasture. Metro was lucky to have had him.

[SwamiSays]

All you Nashville people are killing me! I liked Nashville while I was there...but in rush hour traffic I can get anywhere in the 'nooga in 20 minutes (and my house cost about a third of what it would be in the 'ville) /thumb[1].gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumb:" border="0" alt="thumb[1].gif" />

 

I would like to go on record and state that I think RC really tries to mitigate some of the animosity directed at privates by the public cabal at the TSSAA. I remember that he was personally against DII...I also remember that the straw that broke the camel's back was not just BA winning their second 5a championship, but the fact that multiple reports (some from private schools) were coming in about rampant recruiting there AND McCallie got caught with their hand in the wrestling cookie jar and sued the TSSAA about their punishment even though they had obviously violated many rules.

 

I would have been fed up (and I was at the time) with that kind of behavior too...especially if I was a public school AD on the TSSAA Board.

 

It is sad to me that a lynch mob mentality developed, however, and it is particularly tragic that it has continued to this day. At the time (and ever since) I believed that the specific schools that were caught should have been SEVERLY punished (they were punished...not too severly) but that the other privates should have been left alone. Why? Because it is never fair to punish the group for what a few have done. Moreover, it is nothing but stereotyping and prejudice to assume that because a few schools of a particular type or location are cheating that ALL similar schools are too. But that is the basis of DII, the multiplier and current split talk...if a few of (name the school type: aid giving private, non-aid private, magnet, open zoned, etc.) are better than average they all must have cheated or have advantages over all the other schools.

 

That is the mindset that leads to witch hunts and lynchings. It is something we should all fight against. The TSSAA should treat member schools on their merits and behavior individually...severly punish both publics and privates who cheat while leaving the rest alone. Instead they have consistently punished privates as a group for percieved injustices. It is the equivalent of a teacher giving all the boys in a class F's in conduct because a couple misbehave while handing out demerits for individual girls who misbehave and claiming "we all know how boys are" to justify the actions.

 

 

Coach, you make excellent points. I agree totally that violators and violators alone should be punished and it should be severe. Privates have definitely bore the brunt of responsiblility, even though it was only a few that were caught. I believe that part of issue is that with many there has been an assumption that all privates are doing it, even though that is very far from the truth. I also believe that some public supporters got their foot in the door with the multiplier based on the caught violators you mentioned. and they rode that horse to the detriment of many schools, public and private. And they used it as an excuse to "put the privates in their place."

Sorry about all the nashville talk, we're old, so excuse our blatherings.

[big red big blue]

sorry--what I meant to say (re: BA's 5A titles) was that those were the only two titles won by a financial aid-granting school from 1975 - 1997 playing at the highest level (i.e., 3A or 5A). So while BA won two titles in two years of playing 5A football, the rest of us in 3A/5A won 3 combined (Ryan, Baylor, and CBHS--all in the early 70s). Even with the two BA 5A titles, we still captured a percentage of the titles that was in line with our precentage make-up of the TSSAA. Until the two BA titles, I don't think any of the current d2 schools even played in a Clinic Bowl over that time period.

 

I just can't imagine that this vote was at all a legitimate choice for our state in 1997. Maybe it was the "will of the people," but how did it pass the common sense test that people could vote to separate 7 schools from 3 distinct regions of the state into a unique organization with nothing else in common but that they are private schools? Can you imagine a scenario in which a group of public schools, tired of losing to the same public schools year after year, voted Riverdale, Maryville, Melrose, Ooltewah, Smyrna, Whitehaven, and Ravenwood into their own division? And on top of that, refused to provide them with any local games, thus ensuring that they traveled hundreds of miles every year, just to fill out a schedule? That is in essence what happened to all of us.

 

That's my biggest beef with RC. That he didn't look at what was being created and say "wait a minute. This isn't right. I can't let this happen." Now I don't know about how the quota argument fits into the puzzle. If the TSSAA is simply set up that way--i.e., the people with the #s get to carry the day--then I guess we all got what we deserved for agreeing to those rules. If people were angry with financial aid granting schools, then RC should have had multiple "come to Jesus" conversations with them and told them how close they were to banishment...maybe he did that...who knows.

[Bighurt]

. . . Sorry about all the Nashville talk, we're old, so excuse our blatherings.

 

Blatherings? I would characterize it as "sharing wisdom gleaned from experience". Nah! "Blatherings" is a better description.

[SwamiSays]

Blatherings? I would characterize it as "sharing wisdom gleaned from experience". Nah! "Blatherings" is a better description.

 

 

hah!

[itzme]

Did Mr. Carter choose to present the Championship Trophy to the DII AA football champion this year? Last year, he chose not to, although he was in attendance.

[rick7425]

sorry--what I meant to say (re: BA's 5A titles) was that those were the only two titles won by a financial aid-granting school from 1975 - 1997 playing at the highest level (i.e., 3A or 5A). So while BA won two titles in two years of playing 5A football, the rest of us in 3A/5A won 3 combined (Ryan, Baylor, and CBHS--all in the early 70s). Even with the two BA 5A titles, we still captured a percentage of the titles that was in line with our precentage make-up of the TSSAA. Until the two BA titles, I don't think any of the current d2 schools even played in a Clinic Bowl over that time period.

 

I just can't imagine that this vote was at all a legitimate choice for our state in 1997. Maybe it was the "will of the people," but how did it pass the common sense test that people could vote to separate 7 schools from 3 distinct regions of the state into a unique organization with nothing else in common but that they are private schools? Can you imagine a scenario in which a group of public schools, tired of losing to the same public schools year after year, voted Riverdale, Maryville, Melrose, Ooltewah, Smyrna, Whitehaven, and Ravenwood into their own division? And on top of that, refused to provide them with any local games, thus ensuring that they traveled hundreds of miles every year, just to fill out a schedule? That is in essence what happened to all of us.

 

That's my biggest beef with RC. That he didn't look at what was being created and say "wait a minute. This isn't right. I can't let this happen." Now I don't know about how the quota argument fits into the puzzle. If the TSSAA is simply set up that way--i.e., the people with the #s get to carry the day--then I guess we all got what we deserved for agreeing to those rules. If people were angry with financial aid granting schools, then RC should have had multiple "come to Jesus" conversations with them and told them how close they were to banishment...maybe he did that...who knows.

 

brbb: I don't think one can fairly consider the effect of BA's success by isolating only its 5A championships. Schools in every enrollment classification have an interest in the public/private issue. Most schools never even make it to a football championship game in whatever classification they may compete. From 1974 through 1996, BA made it to the finals 15 times, and won the championship it was playing for 9 of those times. Of course Ryan and CBHS didn't achieve that sort of success. Unfortunately, BA's football success, some achieved while playing up three levels in classification, skews the discussion about what went on before Division II was created.

 

Division II is a classification. It didn't separate 7 schools into a unique organization. It separated schools that give financial aid to student-athletes into a separate classification for tournament competition. There were roughly 30 private schools that moved into Division II. It was within that division that the "Super 7" group was created.

 

Again, I'm not passing judgment for or against the creation of Division II. I have my own opinion about it, but that's not the reason I entered into this exchange. My point is that Ronnie Carter didn't create Division II. The Legislative Council did it. I am certain that he made clear his opposition to separation of public and private schools. But in the organization of TSSAA, Ronnie Carter does not possess the power to prevent the Legislative Council or the Board of Control from acting, just like a corporate CEO does not have the power to keep the Board of Directors from acting.

 

Others have accurately pointed out that it is unfair to punish all private schools for the sins of a few, and that each should be judged on its own merit. But by the same rationale, it is unfair to lump all public school officials together, and unfortunately I sense some of that going on here. There are actually quite a number of public school officials who do not want to see total separation of the public and private schools for athletic competition, do not think Division II is a good idea, and/or do not think the multiplier should continue. If changes for the good are to occur (and the classification decisions that will be made in 2008 present an opportunity for change), they are more likely to be accomplished by the encouragement of right thinking people on both sides of this aisle rather than by attacks over things that occurred in the past for reasons that most people either no longer recall or never fully understood to begin with.