Public's should not play private schools

[SwamiSays]

Did Mr. Carter choose to present the Championship Trophy to the DII AA football champion this year? Last year, he chose not to, although he was in attendance.

 

 

Now that you have posed this question, I am very interested to hear the answer as well.

[rick7425]

Did Mr. Carter choose to present the Championship Trophy to the DII AA football champion this year? Last year, he chose not to, although he was in attendance.

 

As to last year, are you talking about the game between Webb School of Knoxville and Evangelical Christian School?

 

BTW, on the TV issue, the TSSAA website shows that total combined attendance at the five Division I championship football games in 2006 was 26,627. Total combined attendance at the three Division II championship football games in 2006 was 4,554. The largest portion of the Division I attendance came in 4A and 5A, but even 1A and 2A combined had as many fans as all of Division II, and 3A alone had about the same number of fans as all of Division II.

 

If I were in the marketing business, I would think long and hard about buying ad time for television broadcasts where the overall number of fans in the seats is as low as it was for Division II. And if I were a broadcaster who had to depend on the sale of ad time to justify the costs of bringing in personnel and setting up equipment to televise events, I would think long and hard about committing to something where the sale of ad time may be especially challenging. If the games were all on the same weekend, then it might make sense to pick up for broadcast a game or two where I don't necessarily expect good results, because I can do it without duplicating all my costs (which is why I might go ahead and agree to pick up the 1A and 2A games). But if I had to come back on a different weekend and duplicate all my costs to broadcast another set of games where I could expect attendance to be uniformly low and ad time hard to sell, I would probably be a lot more reluctant to take that on. I'm not saying that's how or why it all happens the way it does, but it makes some sense to me that people in business would think this way.

[Bighurt]

Now that you have posed this question, I am very interested to hear the answer as well.

 

Yes, he did present the trophy to Coach McGugin.

 

Trophy presentation

 

2006 presentation

 

The NFL might calls this compelling visual evidence since 5 pictures later it shows Ronnie Carter on the field shaking Coach Flatt's hand.

[Bighurt]

. . . If changes for the good are to occur (and the classification decisions that will be made in 2008 present an opportunity for change), they are more likely to be accomplished by the encouragement of right thinking people on both sides of this aisle rather than by attacks over things that occurred in the past for reasons that most people either no longer recall or never fully understood to begin with.

 

I agree with you. So, let's talk about ways to move forward in a positive manner.

[rick7425]

Yes, he did present the trophy to Coach McGugin.

 

Trophy presentation

 

2006 presentation

 

The NFL might calls this compelling visual evidence since 5 pictures later it shows Ronnie Carter on the field shaking Coach Flatt's hand.

 

What is the point of this -- or is there one?

[Bighurt]

What is the point of this -- or is there one?

 

There is. He was on the field and did not present the trophy. The same Ronnie Carter that you defend so vigorously is apparently too petty to put aside his personal feelings and present a trophy to Carlton Flatt. Incidents like this get credence to the perception that RC just does not like Coach Flatt and Brentwood Academy. Whether you agree or not, perception is sometimes everything.

 

BTW. I agree that televising D2 games might not make business sense. However, can you blame the D2 schools from feeling like they were slighted?

[big red big blue]

As to last year, are you talking about the game between Webb School of Knoxville and Evangelical Christian School?

 

BTW, on the TV issue, the TSSAA website shows that total combined attendance at the five Division I championship football games in 2006 was 26,627. Total combined attendance at the three Division II championship football games in 2006 was 4,554. The largest portion of the Division I attendance came in 4A and 5A, but even 1A and 2A combined had as many fans as all of Division II, and 3A alone had about the same number of fans as all of Division II.

 

If I were in the marketing business, I would think long and hard about buying ad time for television broadcasts where the overall number of fans in the seats is as low as it was for Division II. And if I were a broadcaster who had to depend on the sale of ad time to justify the costs of bringing in personnel and setting up equipment to televise events, I would think long and hard about committing to something where the sale of ad time may be especially challenging. If the games were all on the same weekend, then it might make sense to pick up for broadcast a game or two where I don't necessarily expect good results, because I can do it without duplicating all my costs (which is why I might go ahead and agree to pick up the 1A and 2A games). But if I had to come back on a different weekend and duplicate all my costs to broadcast another set of games where I could expect attendance to be uniformly low and ad time hard to sell, I would probably be a lot more reluctant to take that on. I'm not saying that's how or why it all happens the way it does, but it makes some sense to me that people in business would think this way.

 

 

If you are in the marketing business and are chosing to advertise on a cheap time slot on Comcast Sports South, or UPN, or whatever network is chosing to carry high school sports (i.e., mega-cheap advertising), you do so well in advance of whatever programming decisions are made. There is no way they are making decisions to show these games based on their ability to sell ad space during the games. There may be a marginal difference in rating between D1 and a hypothetical D2 broadcast, and whatever programming (e.g., Mamma's Family reruns) they were showing otherwise, but I would be highly doubtful that it makes any difference to anyone, dollars-wise. I refuse to believe they are dangling out the prospect of "lofty" ratings for local advertisers for this broadcast...I think for the most part, the programming director is coming to the TSSAA and offering a cut-rate broadcast fee for some content that is a change-up from the usual fare, and perhaps an inexpensive way to draw in a different audience.

 

But I do agree with the fixed cost argument...I.e., that because this endeavor is break-even at best, there is only a budget for one broadcast. In which case, if this is something that's important to the membership in D2, then it's another argument for forming our own association...because if we at MBA have figured out how to work with a Nashville radio station (WNSR) and guarantee the costs to have all of our games broadcast, then collectively we in D2 can come up with a way to make this work economically for a TV network, even if we have to just underwrite the thing ourselves.

[rick7425]

There is. He was on the field and did not present the trophy. The same Ronnie Carter that you defend so vigorously is apparently too petty to put aside his personal feelings and present a trophy to Carlton Flatt. Incidents like this get credence to the perception that RC just does not like Coach Flatt and Brentwood Academy. Whether you agree or not, perception is sometimes everything.

 

Wow. I had a feeling that I shouldn't get in on this discussion.

 

Bighurt, I invite you to look at some more pictures from 2006 before you start jumping to conclusions and accusing people you don't really know of being petty. In 2006, there were three Division II championship games (A, AA, and AAA) It is the Division II-AAA game that BA won. On Sportspix, you can look at pictures from the other Division II championship games as well as the Division I championship games from 2006. Mr. Carter was also present for the Division II-AA game (see picture 1245 of 1296) and the Division II-A game (see picture 763 of 837). BA and Coach Flatt were not involved in those games. Mr. Carter didn't hand out the team trophies or coaches plaques for those games either. In all of those games, the trophies and plaques were handed out either by representatives of Blue Cross, who sponsored the games, or by a member of the TSSAA Board of Control (Mike Tribue -- a public school principal). Then check out the 2006 Division I championship photos. I can assure you that Mr. Carter was there, but I believe you will find pictures of other individuals handing out team trophies and coaches' plaques. The fact is that Mr. Carter has handed out plenty of plaques and trophies over the years. Whenever there is someone present who is a representative of the bowl sponsor or a Board of Control member who would like to hand out the trophies or plaques, Mr. Carter defers to that person. It is pretty easy to understand why Blue Cross, as the bowl sponsor, wanted one of its representatives to hand the championship hardware to BA and its record-setting coach in 2006.

 

This is exactly what I've been talking about earlier -- jumping to incorrect conclusions based on incomplete information. The sad thing for Mr. Carter is that for years he has gotten this from both sides. There are some public school proponents out there who have long accused him of being a defender and apologist for private schools. Unfortunately, this public/private debate is too often characterized by folks who feel slighted on both sides, who always find their glass half-empty, who start with a preconceived premise and then look no further once they see a fact that they think supports that premise. It would be a lot easier to debate, discuss, and analyze the real issues if so much time and effort didn't have to be spent dispelling these sorts of misguided conclusions.

 

While Mr. Carter's deferral to a Blue Cross representative in 2006 had nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that it was BA and Coach Flatt that won that particular game, I do want to address your suggestion that consideration of that fact would have been "petty." In 1997, there were actually two lawsuits that were filed in connection with the BA situation (three if you count the Bart King lawsuit that Coach Flatt's lawyer procured). BA filed its lawsuit in federal court. That is the one that was fought for ten years. BA didn't just sue TSSAA. BA also sued Ronnie Carter personally and sought damages from him that, if awarded, could have led to his own personal financial ruin. In addition, Carlton Flatt filed and pursued his own lawsuit in state court against both TSSAA and Ronnie Carter personally, seeking damages for defamation of character. At the time the Blue Cross Bowl was played in 2006, the BA lawsuit was still going on. BA had won in the Court of Appeals, and there was no word yet whether the Supreme Court would hear the case. In that posture, TSSAA was potentially on the hook for millions of dollars in attorneys fees that BA would seek if it won, in addition to the years of legal expense that TSSAA had already incurred defending the case. I suspect that if any one of us were subjected to those sorts of claims and the threat of personal financial ruin, we would be hard pressed to suppress adverse feelings toward those asserting the claims. The photo of Mr. Carter shaking Coach Flatt's hand on the field, when considered against this backdrop, suggests to me that it would be much more appropriate to commend him for having the character to conduct himself professionally despite that backdrop.

[rick7425]

If you are in the marketing business and are chosing to advertise on a cheap time slot on Comcast Sports South, or UPN, or whatever network is chosing to carry high school sports (i.e., mega-cheap advertising), you do so well in advance of whatever programming decisions are made. There is no way they are making decisions to show these games based on their ability to sell ad space during the games. There may be a marginal difference in rating between D1 and a hypothetical D2 broadcast, and whatever programming (e.g., Mamma's Family reruns) they were showing otherwise, but I would be highly doubtful that it makes any difference to anyone, dollars-wise. I refuse to believe they are dangling out the prospect of "lofty" ratings for local advertisers for this broadcast...I think for the most part, the programming director is coming to the TSSAA and offering a cut-rate broadcast fee for some content that is a change-up from the usual fare, and perhaps an inexpensive way to draw in a different audience.

 

But I do agree with the fixed cost argument...I.e., that because this endeavor is break-even at best, there is only a budget for one broadcast. In which case, if this is something that's important to the membership in D2, then it's another argument for forming our own association...because if we at MBA have figured out how to work with a Nashville radio station (WNSR) and guarantee the costs to have all of our games broadcast, then collectively we in D2 can come up with a way to make this work economically for a TV network, even if we have to just underwrite the thing ourselves.

 

brbb, I'm no marketing expert, and you may be entirely correct on how that works. Again, I was just speculating on this based on what seemed like common sense to me. However, I do know that this year TSSAA arranged for a webcast of all the state championship events. I think there is a charge for the video streaming, but I believe the audio is free. This should be beneficial to everyone.

 

This is all my personal opinion here, but I really don't believe there are good arguments for separate associations. There is a lot of administrative effort and expense that goes with running an association like this, and I don't think it would be in the interest of the DII schools to unnecessarily duplicate that expense. I don't think forcing the DI private schools to go to DII when they don't want to, in order to lessen travel and other issues for the DII schools, is fair. I really think it would be better for the schools on all sides of this debate to look for ways to bring them together. Maybe there could be athletic districts or regions that put everyone together for regular season play and then separated them for playoffs only. Maybe DII could be limited to football (which seems to be the sport where the difference in views is most concentrated). Maybe the schools could all be put back together with some sort of multiplier for schools that give financial aid to athletes. Maybe the multiplier for Division I private schools could be eliminated or reduced. Maybe some governance changes could be considered. Maybe some combination of ideas would work. I don't think the classification decisions next summer for the next 4-year period will solve all the issues, and I'm not sure that all of them can be solved. None of my ideas is perfect. But a start down the road of improvement can lead to further improvements later. If public school and private school proponents alike decide they want to work together to find common ground instead of looking for things to bicker about and accuse one another of, then I believe improvements over the current system can and will be made when the classification decisions are made next summer. I just don't see separation as any sort of improvement.

[Baldcoach]

I think it is safe to say that there are hard feelings on both sides in this debate.

 

I also think that it is safe to say that no individual person is responible for them, but there are certainly several individuals who bear more responsiblity than most. I'll show my list if you'll show yours...

 

I think there are people on both sides who now have a personal and selfish interest in promoting the rift...I just can't understand how splitting the privates in any way helps Tennessee Football in general.

[rick7425]

I think it is safe to say that there are hard feelings on both sides in this debate.

 

I also think that it is safe to say that no individual person is responible for them, but there are certainly several individuals who bear more responsiblity than most. I'll show my list if you'll show yours...

 

I think there are people on both sides who now have a personal and selfish interest in promoting the rift...I just can't understand how splitting the privates in any way helps Tennessee Football in general.

 

I completely agree with you. The only thing I would add is that in some cases, some of the people promoting the rift are good people who sincerely believe they are doing the right thing -- maybe they haven't really thought it through, or maybe they're misguided based on bad information.

[rick7425]

Bighurt: On an old question you raised, in the last year and a half Ronnie Carter has granted 49 "hardship" exceptions to student-athletes at private schools. Most "hardship" cases, whether at public or private schools, involve kids who are otherwise ineligible under the transfer rule. I realize this doesn't fully answer your question, but I am spending too much time on this message board already. I don't have the time to dig deeper to get all the details for you.