What the heck is a "level playing field"

[DS2001]

I read the TSSAA article in the Chattanooga Times Free Press that is on the front page of Coach T today.....And reading between the lines, it looks like the only thing that might be changed at the next classification is that the MULTIPLIER WILL BE ELIMINATED because Ronnie Carter says it hasn`t worked...NO SPLIT, NO Nothing....get ready for 4 more years of the same thing as the past 10 years...The rich will get richer and the poor will stay on the bottom.

[Indian]

By my count and by using the latest TSSAA numbers, here's what it would be with no multiplier, no split. Some of the numbers like Sequatchie, Rhea and Ooltewah are already short, I'm sure others are too. This isn't counting teams that normally move up.

 

I couned 296 teams, not counting new schools opening (Signal Mountain, East Brainerd, etc) and schools adding teams that I don't know about or am not sure of the numbers. I put 59 each in 1A-4A, one extra in 5A.

 

1A, with Goodpasture, CPA, Donelson Christian, CAK, Boyd-Buchanan moving down, rapidly rising teams like Silverdale and Chattanooga Grace already in it, would be loaded. I counted only a few 1A public schools who'd be able to even stay on the field with the first ones mentioned.

 

2A would include Lipscomb and Catholic, they and Alcoa would probably be the three consistantly strongest programs.

 

Same as before in 3A-5A, out of sight, out of mind.

 

1A

1-David Brainerd 89

2-Zion Christian 104

3-Temple 106

4-Mt Juliet Christian 135

5-Knoxville Grace 139

6-Clarksville Academy 142

7-Oakdale 163

8-Silverdale Academy 165

9-Gleason 166

10-Greenfield 169

11-MTCS 171

12-Columbia Academy 174

13-Sunbright 179

14-Chattanooga Grace 181

15-Nashville Christian 182

16-Pickett County 192

17-Red Boiling Springs 201

18-Copper Basin 208

19-Trinity Christian 214

20-Friendship Christian 217

21-Cloudland 218

22-Huntland 222

23-Bruceton 224

24-Greenback 226

25-Coalfield 227

26-Lookout Valley 233

27-Fayette Academy 233

28-South Fulton 244

29-South Pittsburg 247

30-Clay County 249

31-Jackson Christian 251

32-Lake County 258

33-Midway 268

34-Ezell Harding 279

35-Franklin Road Academy 279

36-Cornersville 281

37-Moore County 286

38-Donelson Christian 286

39-Harriman 301

40-Eagleville 310

41-CPA 310

42-Collinwood 324

43-Westside 326

44-McEwen 329

45-Perry County 336

46-Wayne County 339

47-White House Heritage 341

48-Whitwell 343

49-Gordonsville 345

50-Watertown 347

51-Boyd-Buchanan 347

52-Unaka 348

53-Jellico 353

54-West Carroll 354

55-Jo Byrns School 356

56-Middleton 356

57-Manassas 358

58-Goodpasture 360

59-CAK 373

 

2A

60-USJ 378

61-McKenzie 382

62-Halls 383

63-Mt Pleasant 385

64-Union City 391

65-North Greene 400

66-Forrest 402

67-Chattanooga Christian 405 (starting a team)

68-Huntingdon 407

69-Peabody 407

70-Cosby 411

71-Trousdale 414

72-Cascade 422

73-Oneida 424

74-Houston Co.425

75-Wartburg 425

76-Dresden 432

77-Humboldt 433

78-East Robertson 436

79-Richland 441

80-Adamsville 442

81-Hampton 443

82-Decatur Co. Riverside 451

83-Rockwood 455

84-Westside 456

85-Alcoa 473

86-Marion Co. 478

87-Upperman 479

88-Treadwell 484

89-Oliver Springs 492

90-Jackson County 494

91-South Greene 497

92-Oakhaven 498

93-Westmoreland 507

94-Meigs County 513

95-Tellico Plains 519

96-Loretto 526

97-Lipscomb 526

98-Bledsoe Co. 532

99-Tyner 536

100-Knoxville Catholic 548

101-Lewis County 553

102-Memphis South Side 557

103-Notre Dame 561

104-Chuckey-Doak 568

105-Polk Co. 569

106-Happy Valley 576

107-Milan 577

108-Sequatchie 578

109-Gatlinburg-Pittman 588

110-Camden 605

111-West Greene 608

112-Sweetwater 611

113-Cumberland Gap 618

114-Westview 627

115-Harpeth 627

116-Carver 632

117-B.T. Washington 636

118-Smith Co. 644

 

3A

119-Waverly 653

120-Stewart Co.661

121-York 668

122-Frayser 672

123-Cheatham Co. 672

124-Cannon Co. 674

125-Loudon 675

126-Grundy Co. 676

127-Kingston 677

128-Johnson Co. 683

129-Pearl Cohn 686

130-Austin-East 702

131-Sullivan North 703

132-Chester Co. 706

133-Scott 741

134-Gibson Co. 754

135-Unicoi Co. 754

136-Pigeon Forge 769

137-DeKalb County 771

138-Elizabethton 774

139-McNairy 775

140-Crockett County 778

141-Marshall County 779

142-Howard 797

143-McMinn Central 802

144-Claiborne County 804

145-Covington 807

146-Jackson South Side 807

147-Page 813

148-Rutledge 814

149-Macon Co. 820

150-Greenbrier 821

151-White House 827

152-Central-Merry 835

153-Greeneville 864

154-Sycamore 865

155-Bolivar 865

156-Gibbs 871

157-East Ridge 875

158-Spring Hill 875

159-Obion County 888

160-Union Co. 888

161-Sheffield 889

162-Livingston Academy 889

163-Carter 896

164-Ripley 900

165-Lexington 903

166-Station Camp 906

167-Haywood 911

168-Fayette Ware 911

169-Stone 920

170-Montgomery Central 927

171-Memphis East 939

172-Sequoyah 943

173-Mitchell 947

174-Dyersburg 948

175-Brainerd 949

176-Hixson 957

177-Memphis Northside 960

 

4A

178-Giles Co. 967

179-Creek Wood 971

180-Springfield 977

181-Fulton 982

182-Sullivan East 989

183-Sullivan Central 999

184-Liberty 1,007

185-Chattanooga Central 1,009

186-Dyer County 1,014

187-Whites Creek 1,022

188-Stratford 1,036

189-Kingsbury 1,037

190-Jackson North Side 1,044

191-Portland 1,049

192-Anderson County 1,051

193-Maplewood 1,054

194-Hillcrest 1,056

195-Red Bank 1,074

196-Seymour 1,079

197-Trezevant 1,083

198-Knoxville Halls 1,085

199-Hickman Co. 1,108

200-Beech 1,109

201-Lawrence Co. 1,110

202-Volunteer 1,125

203-Powell 1,139

204-Cocke Co.1,142

205-Cleveland 1,146

206-Hardin Co. 1,159

207-Cherokee 1,160

208-Clinton 1,160

209-Kenwood 1,162

210-Shelbyville 1,172

211-Fairley 1,175

212-Tennessee 1,178

213-Lenoir City 1,183

214-Tullahoma 1,189

215-Cumberland Co. 1,200 (estimate after losing students to Stone)

216-White Co. 1,205

217-Hillsboro 1,225

218-Daniel Boone 1,229

219-Northwest High School 1,234

220-Melrose 1,238

221-Raleigh Egypt 1,241

222-South Doyle 1,266

223-Munford 1,269

224-Knoxville Central 1,273

225-Kirby 1,281

226-Centennial 1,304

227-Morristown West 1,308

228-Brighton 1,310

229-Brentwood 1,311

230-Walker Valley 1,314

231-Morristown East 1,321

232-West High School 1,329

233-Memphis Central 1,333

234-Henry County 1,338

235-Glencliff 1,352

236-Rossview 1,356

 

5A

237-Gallatin 1,358

238-Campbell Co.1,362

239-Clarksville High School 1,362

240-McMinn County 1,363

241-Ravenwood 1,379

242-Maryville 1,381

243-Craigmont 1,387

244-Hendersonville 1,389

245-David Crockett 1,390

246-Hillwood 1,390

247-Rhea County 1,398

248-Oakland 1,409

249-Soddy-Daisy 1,425

250-Oak Ridge 1,433

251-Northeast 1,435

252-Dickson Co. 1,436

253-Heritage 1,449

254-Columbia 1,464

255-Mt. Juliet 1,465

256-Franklin County 1,498

257-Wilson Central 1,506

258-Independence 1,523

259-William Blount 1,539

260-Overton 1,551

261-Lincoln Co.1,552

262-Millington 1,557

263-Lebanon 1,564

264-Bradley Central 1,571

265-Wooddale 1,571

266-John Overton 1,572

267-Arlington 1,580

268-Ridgeway 1,589

269-Smyrna 1,594

270-Coffee County 1,597

271-Blackman 1,614

272-Bartlett 1,636

273-Sevier Co. 1,640

274-Franklin High School 1,715

275-Karns 1,735

276-Ooltewah 1,742

277-Siegel 1,753

278-Whitehaven 1,754

279-Dobyns Bennett 1,799

280-Warren County 1,802

281-LaVergne 1,826

282-Hunters Lane 1,869

283-Riverdale 1,943

284-Bearden 1,948

285-Germantown 1,987

286-Cookeville 2,004

287-Science Hill 2,031

288-Cordova 2,035

289-Jefferson Co. 2,047

290-Collierville 2,114

291-White Station 2,152

292-Farragut High School 2,153

293-Bolton 2,202

294-Houston 2,266

295-Antioch 2,373

296-McGavock 2,592

[PBandJ]

By my count and by using the latest TSSAA numbers, here's what it would be with no multiplier, no split. Some of the numbers like Sequatchie, Rhea and Ooltewah are already short, I'm sure others are too. This isn't counting teams that normally move up.

 

I couned 296 teams, not counting new schools opening (Signal Mountain, East Brainerd, etc) and schools adding teams that I don't know about or am not sure of the numbers. I put 59 each in 1A-4A, one extra in 5A.

 

1A, with Goodpasture, CPA, Donelson Christian, CAK, Boyd-Buchanan moving down, rapidly rising teams like Silverdale and Chattanooga Grace already in it, would be loaded. I counted only a few 1A public schools who'd be able to even stay on the field with the first ones mentioned.

 

2A would include Lipscomb and Catholic, they and Alcoa would probably be the three consistantly strongest programs.

 

Same as before in 3A-5A, out of sight, out of mind.

 

My guess is that Goodpasture would continue to play in 2A. They played up in 2A before the multiplier. It is why they remained in 2A with the multiplier re-org as they had high-end 1A numbers then too.

[Antwan]

3a will be a very big class.

[silverpie]

Actually, Goodpasture wasn't playing up into 2A pre-multiplier--they were a natural 2A (at the very bottom of the list). Also, the new schools are likely to have a fairly substantial impact--figure Signal Mountain and East Brainerd to go into 2A, Red Bank to drop to 3A (that's where Signal Mountain will pull from), and Ooltewah could be cut to 4A size by the losses to East Brainerd. No clue on how big Cane Ridge will be, but likely Antioch will stay in 5A (you could make two big 4A's out of their enrollment). Unlikely that Nashville Middle College or Big Picture will have football--will be interesting to see who they co-op with (Middle College is in the Hillsboro zone near the Hillwood boundary, and Big Picture is deep in the Hillwood zone, but both of those already have co-op partners--Hillwood with Hume-Fogg and Hillsboro with MLK, including the Royals' all-sports co-op with the School of the Arts).

[Ole3putt]

Article in short:

 

It was about 10 yrs ago that TSSAA created DII for private schools that give financial aid. Four years ago the multiplier system was implemented for the private schools that chose to continue competing against public schools. What is the liklihood of a complete public - private split and its multiplier working ?

 

We really don't see the cry for the complete split like we did before the multiplier. Schools Choose to either not give financial aid or placed in DII. The only thing I can say for sure right now is that I don't see us going back to having everyone together but as it is now, we won't see a complete change either.

 

There were NINE SCHOOLS that were bumped up by the multiplier. Most of the feedback I received is that the multiplier hasn't worked and they want to go back the way it was.

[UCSportsFan]

I can plainly see the trend...TC whipped multiple privates regularly every year.

 

If the privates have an advantage, and TC whips them, what does that say about TC? If the privates have an advantage, and TC has a better record than ANY of them EVER have had...

 

My point is not that the privates did not get better as the 90s wore on into the 2000s. My point is that TC and SPitt and multiple other schools I could name are every bit as good or BETTER. If we are claiming the privates all have some mystical advantage (it changes from money to zone to motivation to admissions to urban area depending on who is doing the talking) that makes it unfair for publics to play them, and if we are basing that claim on how much the privates win, then it is logically inescapable to conclude that ANY public who has a better winning record than ALL the privates must have equal or greater advantages.

 

And to head of Antwan's latest attempt at justification, you don't only look at the last 4 years' records for reclassification IF you are considering punishing a whole group of schools by claiming they consistently dominate. 4 years isn't nearly enough time to back that claim up with. 10 years, maybe, but to show that what you are seeing isn't a temporary trend you probably need 15 or 20 years worth of data. The only problem is that when you include that data the picture becomes less clear...and it is hard to justify punishing 20% of the small schools in the TSSAA without very clear data.

 

But heck, I'll take 4 years worth of data. Show me any private in the last 4 years that is as good as the best publics. Not better than, just as good as. If you can't, then you can't justify a split, period.

 

 

 

What is the ONE commonality of TC's wins? Not one time did you show ANOTHER public school system in there! They were ALL private schools!!!!! That in itself should tell you that the field is weighted to the side of the privates that actively recruit players into their schools. Ronnie Carter's alma mater cant win the state championship in 2A because of Alcoa so he says the mulitiplier "hasn't worked" knowing that if it goes into effect Goodpasture goes up to 3A as they should have last time but the rule Carter put in was that NO school could go up more than one classification. While the mulitplier isn't perfect its ALOT BETTER than what we had!! The athelete vs student ratio is so much larger at the private school's as we all know. Its not a fair fight in most cases. Sure you can point out a school like TC or Alcoa but they are the EXCEPTION to the rule for the most part your privates dominate football week in and week out. For this reason there needs to be a total split or atleast make all the privates play 3A and up in football and 2A and up in basketball. At no time should they be allowed to play down in 1A or 2A in football and NEVER in 1A in basketball and the other sports. /blush.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":blush:" border="0" alt="blush.gif" />

[UCSportsFan]

Article in short:

 

It was about 10 yrs ago that TSSAA created DII for private schools that give financial aid. Four years ago the multiplier system was implemented for the private schools that chose to continue competing against public schools. What is the liklihood of a complete public - private split and its multiplier working ?

 

We really don't see the cry for the complete split like we did before the multiplier. Schools Choose to either not give financial aid or placed in DII. The only thing I can say for sure right now is that I don't see us going back to having everyone together but as it is now, we won't see a complete change either.

 

There were NINE SCHOOLS that were bumped up by the multiplier. Most of the feedback I received is that the multiplier hasn't worked and they want to go back the way it was.

 

 

It hasn't worked because they are not winning as much so naturally they want to go back i would too!! Privates need to be in their own classification or be made to pull from ONLY their area just like the publics do! /popcorneater.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":popcorneater:" border="0" alt="popcorneater.gif" />

[Ole3putt]

It hasn't worked because they are not winning as much so naturally they want to go back i would too!! Privates need to be in their own classification or be made to pull from ONLY their area just like the publics do! /popcorneater.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":popcorneater:" border="0" alt="popcorneater.gif" />

 

 

That's the way I read it.

[Antwan]

It hasn't worked because they are not winning as much so naturally they want to go back i would too!! Privates need to be in their own classification or be made to pull from ONLY their area just like the publics do! /popcorneater.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":popcorneater:" border="0" alt="popcorneater.gif" />

 

 

The problem with that is that their "area" contains up to 1,000,000 people.

 

I think Carter's statement is very interesting. He said we won't be going back to having everyone together (translation...DII will still be there). He also said we won't see a complete change either (translation...no complete split). He also said the privates moved up said the multiplier hasn't worked. What the heck does that mean?

He also said there wasn't the cry for a complete split as much as before the multiplier. Who has he been listening to?

I think the cry is there...it's just not as much from 1a schools. I'll bet it's much louder from 2a and 3a schools.

[UCSportsFan]

The problem with that is that their "area" contains up to 1,000,000 people.

 

I think Carter's statement is very interesting. He said we won't be going back to having everyone together (translation...DII will still be there). He also said we won't see a complete change either (translation...no complete split). He also said the privates moved up said the multiplier hasn't worked. What the heck does that mean?

He also said there wasn't the cry for a complete split as much as before the multiplier. Who has he been listening to?

I think the cry is there...it's just not as much from 1a schools. I'll bet it's much louder from 2a and 3a schools.

 

 

As we all know Ronnie Carter is FROM A PRIVATE SCHOOL!!! So naturally he's going to say it hasn't worked because Goodpasture CAN'T BEAT ALCOA in 2A and they can't win in 3A so he's going to put them back in 1A? How fair is that? Carter is looking out for GOODPASTURE and ONLY GOODPASTURE and the other PRIVATES! The public school system needs a voice of reason in TSSAA. No way Ronnie Carter should be given carte blanche to do however he see's fit just because GOODPASTURE can't win a state championship in 2A. Who else makes these decisions besides Carter? How can they not say that there isn't a cry for a complete split! ARE YOU NOT LISTENING?? THERE NEEDS TO BE A COMPLETE SPLIT!!! If not a complete split then like i said the privates need to play in 3A and up in Football and atleast 2A and up in basketball, baseball, etc... otherwise the so called "level playing" field will not exist in this state. /blush.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":blush:" border="0" alt="blush.gif" />

[supersteve17]

As we all know Ronnie Carter is FROM A PRIVATE SCHOOL!!! So naturally he's going to say it hasn't worked because Goodpasture CAN'T BEAT ALCOA in 2A and they can't win in 3A so he's going to put them back in 1A? How fair is that? Carter is looking out for GOODPASTURE and ONLY GOODPASTURE and the other PRIVATES! The public school system needs a voice of reason in TSSAA. No way Ronnie Carter should be given carte blanche to do however he see's fit just because GOODPASTURE can't win a state championship in 2A. Who else makes these decisions besides Carter? How can they not say that there isn't a cry for a complete split! ARE YOU NOT LISTENING?? THERE NEEDS TO BE A COMPLETE SPLIT!!! If not a complete split then like i said the privates need to play in 3A and up in Football and atleast 2A and up in basketball, baseball, etc... otherwise the so called "level playing" field will not exist in this state.

 

 

Are you sure RC is from a private school? I would guess he graduated from HS somewhere in the 1960's. That would mean that his possible pool of private schools from which to graduate would be much smaller. I also think his children went to a public school and I believe his son teaches/coaches at a public school also. I'm not disputing your information, I just don't know for sure.