Coaches vs. Officials

[thug dadi]

Thanks for comments and opinions on this thread, and no, bench decorum is not consistently addressed, even though it is a point of emphasis....Let me ask all readers, especially the coaches, this one situation and get your opinioed response....True story- High School Game - Head coach has been warned and has seen the hand from me after vehemently arguing a call. After a few more trips up and down the floor, as I pass directly in front of him and he screams while standing, " God ref, you just blew another one!" I stop and immediatly assess a technical foul. Right on cue, one of the asst. coaches pipes in in a normal tone, "That's the first call you have gotten right all night."

 

Question: Would you, if you were in my shoes, call another technical (on the bench)? I'm not going to tell you what I did...I want to know what you would do....If I get enough responses, I may tell you what I did....Everyone I've related this situation to, including fellow officials, have given me various opinions...This thread seems to have some intelligent posters - I would really like your feedback....Thanks

 

You let it slide. There was no profanity from the A.C. and since you didn't say, I'll assume he stayed seated. So, I'd say let it go.

[bradnessler]

i don't think there would be any problems with the games if the refs called like they were suppose to be

called. a foul is a foul, a reach is a reach, and over the back is over the back. if they would call by the rules instead of "letting them play" then coaches and fans should not get upset

because if you do you will get called on it.

 

You're right, a "foul" is a "foul". However, a "reach" without contact is not a "foul" and "over the back" without contact is not a "foul". It is not a foul to swipe at the ball and it is not a foul to outjump someone...even if you're behind them. There is no foul until there's contact. If more people would know the "rules", as you claim to from your post, they would realize that officials are not always as you say, "letting them play", rather making a good no-call by not penalizing someone for playing swarming, aggressive defense or being more athletic than their opponent. JMHO. /thumb[1].gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumb:" border="0" alt="thumb[1].gif" />

[thug dadi]

The core of the problems with refs for me is the fact there there is no accountability. We had one night were two kids recieved a concussion in two seperate incidents. First was a flagrant over the back, with the fouler wrapping an arm around the head/throat of the other player, loosing balance and dragging the fouled player to the floor by their head/throat, til the head struck the floor. Second, player shoots a three from the corner, about 6 inches beyond the 3 pt line. The defender undercut the shooter so hard that the shooter comes down in the bleachers. Both were doctor certified concussions and in both incidents, no foul was called. The refs left demanding that they had control of the game, and after sending video to the assigning/directing official, there was no action, no correction, nothing. Just a "They missed it, but we know they can't see everything." That attitude is the core of what is wrong. The "We admit we're human, but we're not going to change." is old and unexceptable to me. This is tongue and cheek, but I've often wondered if the refs that refuse to call these actions a foul in a game would consider the same actions worthy of assault and battery charges if committed on the street.

[Pantherbert]

You're right, a "foul" is a "foul". However, a "reach" without contact is not a "foul" and "over the back" without contact is not a "foul". It is not a foul to swipe at the ball and it is not a foul to outjump someone...even if you're behind them. There is no foul until there's contact. If more people would know the "rules", as you claim to from your post, they would realize that officials are not always as you say, "letting them play", rather making a good no-call by not penalizing someone for playing swarming, aggressive defense or being more athletic than their opponent. JMHO. /thumb[1].gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumb:" border="0" alt="thumb[1].gif" />

 

 

 

Even then " over the back" isn't so much about contact as it is having position.

[bradnessler]

Even then " over the back" isn't so much about contact as it is having position.

 

Agreed.

[Coach2001]

You're right, a "foul" is a "foul". However, a "reach" without contact is not a "foul" and "over the back" without contact is not a "foul". It is not a foul to swipe at the ball and it is not a foul to outjump someone...even if you're behind them. There is no foul until there's contact. If more people would know the "rules", as you claim to from your post, they would realize that officials are not always as you say, "letting them play", rather making a good no-call by not penalizing someone for playing swarming, aggressive defense or being more athletic than their opponent. JMHO. /thumb[1].gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumb:" border="0" alt="thumb[1].gif" />

 

I agree. There is no such foul as a "reach" foul or "over the back" foul.

 

Here is something you might want to think about. I would venture to say that officials make more than some coaches. Many coaching supplements range anywhere from 1500 to approximately 8 to 10000. So the average coach by number makes around 4 to 5000. If an official works junior high freshman and varsity then they could work 3 to 5 times per week for 5 months.

An official could easily make 4 to 5000 dollars which is equivalent to the supplement of many coaches. Therefore, I do see the point where officials could be fined in some cases. Having said that, the majority of officials do the best they can and coaches do as well. Please understand, I am not saying officials should be repromanded for missing calls bc we all know that coaches make many mistakes as well. I do feel if coaches or officials get out of line then there should be consequences for both. I still feel that human to human meetings outside of the gym during games would be beneficial to all involved.

[thug dadi]

I agree. There is no such foul as a "reach" foul or "over the back" foul.

 

Here is something you might want to think about. I would venture to say that officials make more than some coaches. Many coaching supplements range anywhere from 1500 to approximately 8 to 10000. So the average coach by number makes around 4 to 5000. If an official works junior high freshman and varsity then they could work 3 to 5 times per week for 5 months.

An official could easily make 4 to 5000 dollars which is equivalent to the supplement of many coaches. Therefore, I do see the point where officials could be fined in some cases. Having said that, the majority of officials do the best they can and coaches do as well. Please understand, I am not saying officials should be repromanded for missing calls bc we all know that coaches make many mistakes as well. I do feel if coaches or officials get out of line then there should be consequences for both. I still feel that human to human meetings outside of the gym during games would be beneficial to all involved.

 

I'm not sure that a meeting would be beneficial. For one, it coud easily become another source of anamosity between the coaches and refs as they argue. Furthermore, the coaches themselves would use it as a time to try to emphasize their own items to the refs. Coaches with fast aggressive players would want to push for "let 'em play", while coaches with slower players or weaker benches would want every touch to be called. What I would like to see, and some local associations do this, is for each refs meeting to be about what happened, what was right and wrong about it, and if something significant happened, for them to watch video to see what happened and discuss how to handle it. I'm not sure where your located, but I can tell you that in our part of East TN, there is a shortage of good refs, refs that can call varsity high school games. We have several that only want to call middle school, and some that will call high school JV, but as soon as a new ref comes along that is decent and wants to progress, he is quickly brought right up to the high school varsity level. I think that refs are like the rest of us. If a coach tells him he's wrong or has made a mistake, his natural reaction is to become defensive. But, if the same ref sets with his fellow refs and discuss what happened and how to handle it the next time, I think that they would be more prone to listen and learn. The refs that we have here have years of experience, and loosing them would be a set back, but at the same time, they need to keep learning. I can't think of any other job off hand that pays $30-$40 an hour where once you have been certified, you can just stop learning.

[INURFACE]

You're right, a "foul" is a "foul". However, a "reach" without contact is not a "foul" and "over the back" without contact is not a "foul". It is not a foul to swipe at the ball and it is not a foul to outjump someone...even if you're behind them. There is no foul until there's contact. If more people would know the "rules", as you claim to from your post, they would realize that officials are not always as you say, "letting them play", rather making a good no-call by not penalizing someone for playing swarming, aggressive defense or being more athletic than their opponent. JMHO. /thumb[1].gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumb:" border="0" alt="thumb[1].gif" />

 

 

i know that but 8 times out of ten there is contact on all the above in our district

[riverdaleman]

i don't think there would be any problems with the games if the refs called like they were suppose to be

called. a foul is a foul, a reach is a reach, and over the back is over the back. if they would call by the rules instead of "letting them play" then coaches and fans should not get upset

because if you do you will get called on it.

 

I respectfully disagree with you...protect the shooter let the little touch fouls go and let them play...if u call every foul the game will take to long and neither team will be able to get into the flow of the game and insteadof it being a basketball game it becomes a free throw game and no one wants that all game long...also protect on the rebound but let the game flow let them play

[wildstang]

I respectfully disagree with you...protect the shooter let the little touch fouls go and let them play...if u call every foul the game will take to long and neither team will be able to get into the flow of the game and insteadof it being a basketball game it becomes a free throw game and no one wants that all game long...also protect on the rebound but let the game flow let them play

 

 

Yes, I agree with you on this let them play, but on the other hand the ref's need to get together before the game and say "hey, touchy fouls are not going to be called" They all three need to be on the same page.

 

The problem is you get one official that doesn't call it on one end, then another that calls it on the other end. Then you got one that doesnt call them "let me knock you down throw you off the court fouls" then your fan's get riled up.

 

This cause's alot of the problems with fan's and ball player's getting fustrated.. One game your allowed to take your opponent on with force then the next time down the court the other ref say's you can't. I think all that is being ask is, " Keep it under control" do not let the temper's start to flare" on the court. If this happens I honestly believe it would make for a better atmosphere at ball games. When you get a game that is out of control on the court most of the time it will be off the court....

[gatorbillmsu]

I need a clarification: The last rule book I reffed under, and coached under, stated that a fan removal from a game was a bench technical. How is this handled here in TN?

 

 

Last night there were 2 stoppages: One to remove a fan, and another to move fans into the seats. (from a location that is usually ok to watch from. So I am guessing there was something more happening than just watching the game)

 

The refs in last nights game rank as follows:

 

Roundbelly Guy: Pretty decent. He would make the right call when it mattered (more to follow on why he was only "pretty decent")

 

Skinny Younger Guy: Horrible. Did not know shat from shinola. Horrible misses, and some blocking/charging calls that were unexplainable. I dont know if he was just trying to pull an "alternating possesion" thing out of his tail, or what he was doing. But he was horrible.

 

Skinny Shaved head guy: Left his whistle in the car. He called nothing.

 

Roundbelly guy tried very hard to make up for the ineptitude of his partners. You could tell that there were calls that were clearly "makeups", but that just makes the problem worse sometimes. There were 2 high energy, emotional games last night, and these 3 guys did not come prepared to play. They let down a lot of people.

 

What a shame.

[ernieg]

I need a clarification: The last rule book I reffed under, and coached under, stated that a fan removal from a game was a bench technical. How is this handled here in TN?

Last night there were 2 stoppages: One to remove a fan, and another to move fans into the seats. (from a location that is usually ok to watch from. So I am guessing there was something more happening than just watching the game)

 

The refs in last nights game rank as follows:

 

Roundbelly Guy: Pretty decent. He would make the right call when it mattered (more to follow on why he was only "pretty decent")

 

Skinny Younger Guy: Horrible. Did not know shat from shinola. Horrible misses, and some blocking/charging calls that were unexplainable. I dont know if he was just trying to pull an "alternating possesion" thing out of his tail, or what he was doing. But he was horrible.

 

Skinny Shaved head guy: Left his whistle in the car. He called nothing.

 

Roundbelly guy tried very hard to make up for the ineptitude of his partners. You could tell that there were calls that were clearly "makeups", but that just makes the problem worse sometimes. There were 2 high energy, emotional games last night, and these 3 guys did not come prepared to play. They let down a lot of people.

 

What a shame.

 

Sounds like Larry, Curly, and Mo....Had you seen them work together before, or was it a mixed crew from what you normally see?