Double Elimination

[Saru]

I agree that they could start the tournament earlier in order to run a double elimination. That and I think that they should go ahead and put the DII in another venue.

 

I also think that the bickering between DI and DII as to who is better could be decided with a DI Champ v. DII Champ dual. But that's neither here nor there.

[wosbodog]

I agree that they could start the tournament earlier in order to run a double elimination. That and I think that they should go ahead and put the DII in another venue.

 

I also think that the bickering between DI and DII as to who is better could be decided with a DI Champ v. DII Champ dual. But that's neither here nor there.

 

 

That's something everybody's been wanting for years, except for basically either a few schools or tssaa members who think the private (d2) schools have an advantage because of their power to "recruit". It's a worthy argument, in fact I have no problem with separate dual tournaments, as the best teams could face each other at any time during the season if they agreed to; it's the individual championships that need to be combined. The only way I see this happening would be if they didn't crown any team the champion; no plaques or recognition- that's what the dual tournament is for. The individual state tournament would be solely in the interests of the individual athletes so one could call himself the true state champion.

 

But for this to happen they would need to change the team scoring for dual matches. Right now I'd say there's more merit in winning an individual tournament because the dual championship is like rock-paper-scissors. It's hard for one team to call themselves the best, because they could have easily lost on another day. The scoring system just doesn't accurately gauge which team is really the best. So here's my new plan:

 

Decisions worth 3 team points

Major decisions worth 6 team points

Tech falls worth 7 team points

Pins worth 8 team points

 

This gives a greater distinction of which team has the more dominant wrestlers. I think it could work.

[wosbodog]

Anyway about the double elimination, besides for putting d2 in another building, I liked fiscus's idea as well as tnko's. But I believe what Ronnie Carter and the TSSAA want is to devote no more than two weekends for the region/state tournament process. I'm assuming both region and state must have at least part of their tournaments on Saturday so the wrestlers don't miss too much school, and so they get a few days to rest between the two tournaments. It's also a priority for the TSSAA that they conclude the state championship as fast as possible. So the crazy elimination system is the best way they know to solve the problem. But this clearly isn't working out. I guess this leaves us with just two alternatives, and I'm not even counting the idea of less weight classes (go get 'em David!) If 32-man bracket double elimination is out of the question, then we can either

 

use two facilities to hold the tournament

 

reduce the number of entries

 

Why we're not using two buildings is beyond me, so let's say reducing the number of qualifiers is our only choice. The best thing I can think of is to have a 24-man bracket. A round of 32 with 8 wrestlers receiving byes. This I think would save enough time. To do this, have 6 regions each advancing 4 wrestlers to state.

New Region 1: Combine current Regions 1 and 2

New Region 2: Current Region 3, with a few teams from current Region 4

New Region 3: Current Region 4 minus the dropped teams, plus half of Region 5

New Region 4: Current Region 6, plus the other half of Region 5

New Region 5: Current Regions 7 and 8

New Region 6: Current Regions 9 and 10

 

Each region champ gets a bye in the first round of state, the 2nd place finishers from the two strongest regions (whoever had the most state medalists the previous year) also get byes.

 

I dunno know, what do you guys think?

[wosbodog]

Shoot, they wouldn't even need to wrestle the finals if that took too much time, as long as they determine the top 4 placers. It could be random who gets the byes.

 

Anything, even the weird elimination, is better than cutting the number of weight classes.

[Super103]

I agree and im liking wosbodogs idea also.

[silverpie]

Putting it in terms of numbers: if you go down to 12 weight classes (which, were it to be done, I would do by reverting all but the first and last two to the classical ones--this would be 103 112 119 126 132 138 145 155 167 185 215 285), that cuts potentially 148 bouts (45 per class in D1, 29 in D2, but some of the latter are byes). Going to full double elimination would then add back 192 (16 bouts in each of 12 classes--D2 is already a full wrestleback). So you've added a total of 44 bouts, or 5.5 per mat. You would need to run an additional round on Friday (the first consolation round, I'd figure), with total bouts per mat going from 42 to 48 that day.

 

A lesser step would be to push the pull-through back one round (round-of-16 losers would be guaranteed a trip to consolations, and round-of-32 losers would have to be pulled once instead of twice). That only adds 96 bouts in a 12-class system (so you have a net reduction), or 112 in a 14-class system.

 

I would also note that Tennessee is not the only state looking at reducing the number of weight classes. Minnesota is considering going down to 13, and there has been a lot of sentiment to go to 12 in Pennsylvania.

[BadOne]

Why don't they let fiscon run it. He/They would find a way to make it work. Seriously, why don't they just lease out the tournament and let someone else worry about it. They provide expectations and approve the final format.

 

Here is what Kentucky does. They have 32man brackets with full double. They do it in the same time constraints that Tennessee has. They also only use 4 mats. If they can do it on 4 mats why can't Tennessee do it. Its a total of 868 matchs. Only about 200 more than the current format. 200 can be done easily over 3 days.

 

Here is their schedule and a bracket.

 

 

http://www.khsaa.org/wrestling/2008/statemeettimetable.pdf

 

http://www.khsaa.org/wrestling/2008/state/khs2008brk010.htm

[RMC]

Just go look at the thread on our schedule for Georgia. We run 3 32 man brackets, 1 16 man bracket, and 1 8 man bracket and all with double elimination.

 

http://tennessee.coacht.com/boards/index.p...howtopic=168257

[silverpie]

Haven't fully had the chance to analyze the Kentucky or Georgia setups, but they do look to me like they don't match the "letter of the law" in respect to weigh-ins.

 

Kentucky also has wrestlers potentially going four times on Saturday, not a violation of the rules mind you, but I'm not sure it's a good idea. That's the big difference on schedules also--they start their gold medal matches around the same time Tennessee ends its, if not later

 

And realistically, I can't see finding a site with the capacity for more mats than the Roundhouse, while also retaining the ability to see all the mats (this is a major pain in the rear with convention-center tournaments--almost all the seats are so low that you have no chance of seeing anything on the other side). Georgia's quite fortunate in being able to afford a site on par with the Sommet Center.

[rigger101]

Since there is only 16 teams in D-II why couldn't they have a Sub state the weekend that the D=I is having the regional tourneys?

 

Memphis vs Nashville, Chattanooga vs Knoxville.

[2blLeg]

Since there is only 16 teams in D-II why couldn't they have a Sub state the weekend that the D=I is having the regional tourneys?

 

Memphis vs Nashville, Chattanooga vs Knoxville.

 

 

that might only result in eliminating some of the wrestlers that would do well against the other side.

[rigger101]

that might only result in eliminating some of the wrestlers that would do well against the other side.

 

That happens in D-I in the regions and the state every year.