Private Schools are hurting Public Schools

[fiftyfifty]

bulldog,

 

You seem to want to set up a straw man then knock it down. No one wants 'mandatory' school prayer. What we want is voluntary prayer. If a public school teacher wants to pray in class they should be able to do it. Imho it is a constitutionally protected right 2 ways...Freedom of Speech AND Freedom of Religion. But because of a mis-application of the seperation of Church and State clause, we have stripped those freedoms. For 100 years public ed in the US allowed religious interactions with the classroom, only in the last 40 years or so have they been forcibly removed. And removed to the point that any mention of personal faith or practice of it can get a teacher fired, especially in the larger metro systems where the community isn't uniformly religious. Which brings us back to why the small religious privates formed up in the first place...they almost universally began in large metro areas about the time that the community schools were being torn down and replaced with mega-schools and religion was being made illegal in the classroom.

 

I don't get the blessings thingy??

 

note: Seperation of Church and State was to prevent a state sponsored denomination or a theocracy from developing, not to prevent public religious expression. It was included because people fled to America to get away from the religious persecutions of the European religious states...if you weren't Dutch Reformed in Holland they could arrest you...if you weren't Catholic in Italy they could arrest you...etc.

I understand exactly what you are saying. But I disagree with you my friend. Who is saying that a teacher can't say a prayer in class, but it is a private prayer. He or she can pray for everyone in the room. But what kind of public prayer would it be, who would it offend, who would decide that. I am not talking about mandatory prayer either, I am saying if it is allowed in any form in any official way, then the abuse of certain students and their feelings would start. Who would monitor this? How would you prevent ridicule toward someone who maybe prayed a little differently than one might be used to. PS One would have to exclude Catholic schools from small privates, (athough there are small Catholic schools across this country) as being in existence due to mega publics or some law about prayer. They exist for the sole purpose of educating children in their faith and building the total person and have existed for hundreds of years throughout the world. So you must mean small non-catholic privates exist for the reasons you stated. I would say that it is a stretch to link the existence of private schools of any kind due to not being allowed to pray in school. I think some of the more pressing social reasons would better explain it. I have many friends who attended public schools their entire lives and nobody stopped them from praying. I also have Catholic friends who attended public schools and were asked the most humiliating questions by their teachers in a room full of students. An example, the teacher said "I heard you worship statues." This is what can and did occur when there are not parameters about public school prayer. When we have to depend on the law, the supreme court or anything that secular in order to say our prayers, I would say that is a sad state of affairs. As to your statement about not understanding Blessings to all and calling it a thingey. I hope that statement is not to be derogatory toward any particular church or faith. I believe anyone can give a blessing if the Lord dwells within them, don't you. I could be very offended by that statement especially if I was of high school age. So again Blessings to all. PSS perhaps the new president can be persuaded to change the law and have a official prayer for schools, maybe he will go on the criteria of who has the most numbers decides what form of prayer is used. I am being silly here, but the point is, there is a clear danger when church and state is not seperated and if part of that package is no official sanctioned prayer in school, so be it. Freedom of speech does not include total freedom of speech (just say the wrong thing to the wrong person and you will end up in jail), and freedom of religion does not imply any forcing of your prayer on me. I bet the law does not change. PSS Many posters have no problem with these thoughts and have e-mailed me to that effect or contacted me in private. But there is no need in beating a dead horse, last post from me on this topic. /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> PSS How could you call prayer voluntary if a teacher led it. What about the students that did not want to partake. What about the stares and ridicule they would receive from their peers. So voluntary is just a word, because in reality many students would be forced. That is not my or many others idea of the purpose of prayer. One last thought, the people who agree with this post are not God-less people, but good people who try every day to be better people, attend church, and believe the same as you do.

[supersteve17]

By the way, "separation" is spelled incorrectly many times in this thread. Remember, it has "a rat" in it! (I learned that in school many years ago -- a public school at that!)

[supersteve17]

...One last thought, the people who agree with this post are not God-less people, but good people who try every day to be better people, attend church, and believe the same as you do.

 

 

Is that to imply that those who may not agree with your points on this topic are God-less, bad people who do not try to be better, never attend church and do not believe the same? Just wondering.

 

Be careful about broad, sweeping generalizations.

[Baldcoach]

I understand exactly what you are saying. But I disagree with you my friend. Who is saying that a teacher can't say a prayer in class, but it is a private prayer. He or she can pray for everyone in the room. But what kind of public prayer would it be, who would it offend, who would decide that. I am not talking about mandatory prayer either, I am saying if it is allowed in any form in any official way, then the abuse of certain students and their feelings would start. Who would monitor this? How would you prevent ridicule toward someone who maybe prayed a little differently than one might be used to. PS One would have to exclude Catholic schools from small privates, (athough there are small Catholic schools across this country) as being in existence due to mega publics or some law about prayer. They exist for the sole purpose of educating children in their faith and building the total person and have existed for hundreds of years throughout the world. So you must mean small non-catholic privates exist for the reasons you stated. I would say that it is a stretch to link the existence of private schools of any kind due to not being allowed to pray in school. I think some of the more pressing social reasons would better explain it. I have many friends who attended public schools their entire lives and nobody stopped them from praying. I also have Catholic friends who attended public schools and were asked the most humiliating questions by their teachers in a room full of students. An example, the teacher said "I heard you worship statues." This is what can and did occur when there are not parameters about public school prayer. When we have to depend on the law, the supreme court or anything that secular in order to say our prayers, I would say that is a sad state of affairs. As to your statement about not understanding Blessings to all and calling it a thingey. I hope that statement is not to be derogatory toward any particular church or faith. I believe anyone can give a blessing if the Lord dwells within them, don't you. I could be very offended by that statement especially if I was of high school age. So again Blessings to all. PSS perhaps the new president can be persuaded to change the law and have a official prayer for schools, maybe he will go on the criteria of who has the most numbers decides what form of prayer is used. I am being silly here, but the point is, there is a clear danger when church and state is not seperated and if part of that package is no official sanctioned prayer in school, so be it. Freedom of speech does not include total freedom of speech (just say the wrong thing to the wrong person and you will end up in jail), and freedom of religion does not imply any forcing of your prayer on me. I bet the law does not change. PSS Many posters have no problem with these thoughts and have e-mailed me to that effect or contacted me in private. But there is no need in beating a dead horse, last post from me on this topic. /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> PSS How could you call prayer voluntary if a teacher led it. What about the students that did not want to partake. What about the stares and ridicule they would receive from their peers. So voluntary is just a word, because in reality many students would be forced. That is not my or many others idea of the purpose of prayer. One last thought, the people who agree with this post are not God-less people, but good people who try every day to be better people, attend church, and believe the same as you do.

 

 

Wow,

 

1) While you have obviously had some bad personal or second hand experiences with other religions, projecting those on me or anyone else is not really conducive to the discussion.

 

2) I was not making a statement about the blessings thingey, I was (quite plainly) saying I didn't understand your point there or how it related to any of the issues we were discussing.

 

3) You are still setting up straw men and knocking them down. If I pray in a classroom no one is forced to pray with me, even if I am a teacher. Congress begins it's sessions with a prayer, that doesn't force the rest of the country or everyone in the chamber to pray. Many of the public schools in Tennessee begin Football games with a prayer (more power to them I say, although if the ACLU finds out there will be trouble) and plenty of people around the stadium continue what they were doing without interruption. To imply that somehow I am forcing a prayer on someone else simply because I say it within their hearing not only defies common sense but also reminds me of Farenheit 451. The opposite is actually the case...by making it illegal for teachers to pray when and where they choose the government has forced non-prayer on them, a clear violation of the separation of church and state.

 

4) I never said, implied, or even thought that anyone who agrees or disagrees with any post on this thread is Godless. That is another strawman you set up to knock down. On the contrary, I think people of good faith fall on both sides of this argument. We can disagree about public school prayer and still agree to be civil.

 

Perhaps this topic is too touchy for this forum. Too bad, it seems like an interesting one. Alas, another one bites the dust.

[fiftyfifty]

Wow,

 

1) While you have obviously had some bad personal or second hand experiences with other religions, projecting those on me or anyone else is not really conducive to the discussion.

 

2) I was not making a statement about the blessings thingey, I was (quite plainly) saying I didn't understand your point there or how it related to any of the issues we were discussing.

 

3) You are still setting up straw men and knocking them down. If I pray in a classroom no one is forced to pray with me, even if I am a teacher. Congress begins it's sessions with a prayer, that doesn't force the rest of the country or everyone in the chamber to pray. Many of the public schools in Tennessee begin Football games with a prayer (more power to them I say, although if the ACLU finds out there will be trouble) and plenty of people around the stadium continue what they were doing without interruption. To imply that somehow I am forcing a prayer on someone else simply because I say it within their hearing not only defies common sense but also reminds me of Farenheit 451. The opposite is actually the case...by making it illegal for teachers to pray when and where they choose the government has forced non-prayer on them, a clear violation of the separation of church and state.

 

4) I never said, implied, or even thought that anyone who agrees or disagrees with any post on this thread is Godless. That is another strawman you set up to knock down. On the contrary, I think people of good faith fall on both sides of this argument. We can disagree about public school prayer and still agree to be civil.

 

Perhaps this topic is too touchy for this forum. Too bad, it seems like an interesting one. Alas, another one bites the dust.

 

Nowhere in my post did I intend to imply that anyone was God-less. I may have worded a sentence that called confusion, but that was never the intention. We can agree to disagree, but the issues I stated are real, not straw men as you choose to refer to it. To cite your own example, if a teacher prays, it does not force anyone else to pray. You are correct if it is in private. But when a teacher prays in a room full of students, the very prayer the teacher chooses may be very hurtful to some students. It also places pressure on young people to fall in. You choose to ignore this and thats okay. But the law can't ignore it and will not ignore it. PS I am not the only person that has friends who have experienced many painful situations in public schools concerning someone's choice as how to worship their God. Once again, unless a particular school has a student population and teacher population who all think the same when it comes to prayer, who makes the decisions to pray this way or that way or who to invoke in prayer. You can respond, but the fact is there is no clear answer. Your explanation for your statement about blessings is insufficient. How can anyone not understand anyone wishing blessings from above at any time, it is aways appropriate. You even accused me of not being civil. Sir, not at any time did I have any inclination not to be civil. It should be easy to see by these posts that misunderstanding of intent is so easy when you are discussing an issue that is so personal to most people. And the funny thing about it is that anybody can pray at any time to their creator. There is no law against that at all. This is my last post really, I broke my word when I said my previous post was my last, but I cannot stand idle with the statements in your post. You still choose to call my wishing blessings on everyone as a thingey. That is disrepectful to me, but thats okay. You are just proving my previous points. One last thing, my wishing blessings to all doesn't have to be part of the topic, it is just my wish, again many blessings to all especially with the upcoming holiday seasons.

[fiftyfifty]

Is that to imply that those who may not agree with your points on this topic are God-less, bad people who do not try to be better, never attend church and do not believe the same? Just wondering.

 

Be careful about broad, sweeping generalizations.

 

The answer to your question is no. /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

 

By the way, "separation" is spelled incorrectly many times in this thread. Remember, it has "a rat" in it! (I learned that in school many years ago -- a public school at that!)

 

Need to learn how to use that spell-check, thanks. /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

[Wave80]

Here is how I perceive it: we have a private school planned in Lawrence County, starting with grades 1-3 and adding one grade a year. It will be christian-oriented but I don't think it is a particular denomination. If it succeeds, and they eventually take, say, 100 students from the high school we will be worse for it. If you took 100 christian students out right now I and the rest of the school would miss those kids since they are exactly what we need more of, not less. That is what I think has happened in many areas of the state, mostly urban and suburban. Over a period of many years that is a lot of support gone.

 

 

There seems to be a lot in what you say. I went to a private schools in a large city in Tennessee. In fact, it is the oldest high school in the city. The education I got was far above what some of my college classmates got, apparently, at their public schools. However, a public school in Memphis City Schools system still produce more National Merit Scholars than any private school in the area. What does all this mean, I think the lack of consistency across big school systems is what is really hurting them and that is an old problem. Part of the problem is parently involvement (in a positive, supportive way of course), but its only part.

[countrypk]

There seems to be a lot in what you say. I went to a private schools in a large city in Tennessee. In fact, it is the oldest high school in the city. The education I got was far above what some of my college classmates got, apparently, at their public schools. However, a public school in Memphis City Schools system still produce more National Merit Scholars than any private school in the area. What does all this mean, I think the lack of consistency across big school systems is what is really hurting them and that is an old problem. Part of the problem is parently involvement (in a positive, supportive way of course), but its only part.

 

 

"There seems to be a lot in what you say. I went to a private schools in a large city in Tennessee. In fact, it is the oldest high school in the city. " I used your quote because it's my history also, just different large city in Tennessee.

 

To the current topic; what really hurts public schools is when in three successive weeks, pistols are taken away at three different schools including a middle school (of coarse it's only Thursday and tomorrow will be another opportunity to slip one in). One of the schools might be described as suburban. Private schools couldn't buy that kind of marketing. We will shortly have a large foreign owned manufacturer locate in our community. Can you imagine their response to the news that guns in school are a fairly common event not to mention regular teacher assaults and how that will affect where the company's executives decide where to send their children to school? Shockingly enough, in most countries, guns in the classroom and assaults on educators are very uncommon! Fortunately for them they haven't adopted our public school model.

 

 

It isn't private schools that hurt public schools, it's public school parents who don't have a clue what their children are doing and don't really care.

[thespidermonkey]

Yes they are stripping your rights when you enter a state building. It is the law, you also have the right to bear arms, but do you want to allow firearms into the schools? BTW I am an NRA member and strong gun advocate, just making a point.