DII-A seeding scenarios

[Trojan Fan]

If 3 teams are tied, doesn't overall record break the tie if head to head doesn't do it? Right now Davidson, Harding, and FACS are all 5-1 in the division. Davidson beat FACS who beat Harding who beat Davidson. 1-1 head to head b/w them all. All 3 should win on Friday. Harding and DA have likely gimmes and FACS is certainly favored over SBEC and should win. If that happens, FACS will be 9-1 while Harding and DA will be 8-2 overall w/ all 3 tied at 6-1 in the division. Would that not put FACS at #1 with Harding #2 having beaten DA heads up?

 

The below tssaa.org scenarios don't seem to show that. They don't even show a scenario with all 3 winning. Did I miss a tiebreaker option somewhere?

 

By the way, the idea of an overall record having anything to do with a tiebreaker is just ridiculous to me when every team has played each other in the league.

 

Division II A

Bracket (HTML, PDF)

 

If FACS wins and Davidson Academy wins, Davidson Academy is first, FACS is second, Harding Academy is third, and SBEC is fourth.

If FACS wins and Davidson Academy loses, FACS is first, Harding Academy is second, Davidson is third, and SBEC is fourth.

If FACS loses, Davidson Academy wins, and Harding Academy wins, Harding Academy is first, Davidson Academy is second, SBEC is third, and FACS is fourth.

If FACS loses, Davidson Academy wins, and Harding Academy loses, Davidson Academy is first, SBEC is second, FACS is third, and Harding Academy is fourth.

If FACS loses, Davidson Academy loses, and Harding Academy wins, Harding Academy is first, SBEC is second, Davidson Academy is third, and FACS is fourth.

If FACS loses, Davidson Academy loses, and Harding Academy loses, SBEC is first, Davidson Academy is second, FACS is third, and Harding Academy is fourth.

 

If St. George's wins, St. George's is fifth.

If St. George's loses, you only have four teams in the playoffs.

[wsttnballer]

If 3 teams are tied, doesn't overall record break the tie if head to head doesn't do it? Right now Davidson, Harding, and FACS are all 5-1 in the division. Davidson beat FACS who beat Harding who beat Davidson. 1-1 head to head b/w them all. All 3 should win on Friday. Harding and DA have likely gimmes and FACS is certainly favored over SBEC and should win. If that happens, FACS will be 9-1 while Harding and DA will be 8-2 overall w/ all 3 tied at 6-1 in the division. Would that not put FACS at #1 with Harding #2 having beaten DA heads up?

 

The below tssaa.org scenarios don't seem to show that. They don't even show a scenario with all 3 winning. Did I miss a tiebreaker option somewhere?

 

By the way, the idea of an overall record having anything to do with a tiebreaker is just ridiculous to me when every team has played each other in the league.

 

Division II A

Bracket (HTML, PDF)

 

If FACS wins and Davidson Academy wins, Davidson Academy is first, FACS is second, Harding Academy is third, and SBEC is fourth.

If FACS wins and Davidson Academy loses, FACS is first, Harding Academy is second, Davidson is third, and SBEC is fourth.

If FACS loses, Davidson Academy wins, and Harding Academy wins, Harding Academy is first, Davidson Academy is second, SBEC is third, and FACS is fourth.

If FACS loses, Davidson Academy wins, and Harding Academy loses, Davidson Academy is first, SBEC is second, FACS is third, and Harding Academy is fourth.

If FACS loses, Davidson Academy loses, and Harding Academy wins, Harding Academy is first, SBEC is second, Davidson Academy is third, and FACS is fourth.

If FACS loses, Davidson Academy loses, and Harding Academy loses, SBEC is first, Davidson Academy is second, FACS is third, and Harding Academy is fourth.

 

If St. George's wins, St. George's is fifth.

If St. George's loses, you only have four teams in the playoffs.

 

 

I have the same understanding as you. In case of a 3-way tie, FACS having more wins would them first, leaving Harding at second since they beat DA.

[jtmgovols]

FACS current record is 7-1 not 8-1 per the TSSAA website. The best they can finish would be 8-1 not 9-1. They are playing only 9 games not 10 according to the FACS website. While they have only one loss, the number of wins is the first tie break criteria leaving all 3 tied with 8 under you set of events. The number of losses doesn't come into play until a later tie breaker.

[Trojan Fan]

FACS current record is 7-1 not 8-1 per the TSSAA website. The best they can finish would be 8-1 not 9-1. They are playing only 9 games not 10 according to the FACS website. While they have only one loss, the number of wins is the first tie break criteria leaving all 3 tied with 8 under you set of events. The number of losses doesn't come into play until a later tie breaker.

 

 

Thanks, JTM. I see now. It looks like Lancaster Christian forfeited a game to FACS earlier in the year. Apparently that's not allowed as a win for FACS...or maybe it was just a cancelled game? Either way, apparently not a win.

 

If I'm understanding this, they all 3 would still be tied with total # of wins at 8 when the season finishes next week assuming all 3 win (and they likely will). The next tiebreaker is # of wins over teams with a .500 record or better. Since they all play the same teams in district and have all beaten the same teams, we can throw those out. All 3 have winning records and they've each won once against the other two in the tiebreaker so that's even as well.

 

Talking out of district, FACS evidently beat Memphis Douglass (who I've never heard of) that I guess has a losing record, can't find anything on them. They also beat Tupelo (MS) Christian who is 5-5 with 1 more game pending. If the rules are to be believed, the 11th game can not count towards the opponents record so Tupelo Christian has to already count as a win over a .500 or better team. So FACS has 1 out of district win over a .500 or better team in the bank.

 

Harding beat Donelson Christian and St. Benedict out of district and both have losing records so they get -0-. They lost to USJ. They're guaranteed to have zero out of district wins over .500 or better teams.

 

Davidson beat Jackson Christian who has to win Friday to finish at .500, beat Ezell Harding w/ a losing record and lost to BGA so they have zero out of district wins over a .500 or better team so far and if JCS loses Friday they're guaranteed to have zero out of district wins over a .500 or better opponent.

 

I guess I don't see how FACS won't be first under this tiebreaker assuming they win Friday and JCS loses Friday. If I'm understanding correctly, Davidson won't even know until Friday night if they've beaten an out of district team who finished .500 or better...so shouldn't there be a scenario that actually involved JCS's game?

 

The next tiebreaker after that is teams opponents that have earned the most victories. I'm not even going to try and calculate that....but it seems like maybe they have moved on to this tiebreaker with Davidson gettting that one?

 

If anybody can lay out how this all went down I'd be interested. I'm sure I missed something along the way. What a screwy tiebreaker system anyway. Why don't they do it based on nothing but district games since that's at least an apples to apples comparison? Even if it's point differential at least it's against the same teams.

[leer]

FACS current record is 7-1 not 8-1 per the TSSAA website. The best they can finish would be 8-1 not 9-1. They are playing only 9 games not 10 according to the FACS website. While they have only one loss, the number of wins is the first tie break criteria leaving all 3 tied with 8 under you set of events. The number of losses doesn't come into play until a later tie breaker.

 

 

 

FACS is currently 8 - 1. Zero week, where the schedule indicates that FACS played Middleton, FACS played Douglass as Middleton canceled the week prior to the game. Week one (August 29), where the schedule indicates Open, was year two of a contract with Lancaster Christian, with Lancaster Christian forfeiting the game, which, per the rules as I understand them, counts as a win for FACS. Do you all know this rule to be different?

[Trojan Fan]

Bump. Still looking for someone who can explain.

[gallatin07]

The TSSAA has changed the format for forfeited games. The new rule states that it is considered a non-game, in which case the Lancaster game would not count as a win for FACS, but simply leave the them with a nine game schedule. As far as the third tiebreaker goes, I would assume that the TSSAA has figured up the total wins for all three teams' opponents and determined that Davidson Academy gets the tiebreaker. Hope this atleast clears up some of the questions reguarding the forfeited game.

[Trojan Fan]

Gallatin,

Thanks on the forfeited game info. That's a piece of information I didn't have. Stinks for FACS but I guess that's how it goes. I can't see why they should already be at the tiebreaker for opposition wins. It seems like it ought to be on wins against teams with .500+ records and that's not decided yet. At least, it doesn't look like it to me.

 

I wonder why Lancaster forfeited that one? They have a team don't they? As far as Middleton backing out at the last minute, it's not the first time they've done that. They did it to SBEC 2 years ago. Beware anyone trying to schedule them in a non-district game.

 

No doubt whoever gets the #1 seed gets a real break. FACS, Harding, and Davidson could all win this thing but there's a real drop off after that. FACS/Harding in a 2/3 game would be a great rematch.

[leer]

The TSSAA has changed the format for forfeited games. The new rule states that it is considered a non-game, in which case the Lancaster game would not count as a win for FACS, but simply leave the them with a nine game schedule. As far as the third tiebreaker goes, I would assume that the TSSAA has figured up the total wins for all three teams' opponents and determined that Davidson Academy gets the tiebreaker. Hope this atleast clears up some of the questions reguarding the forfeited game.

 

 

Thanks for the updated information on forfeited games. Can you point me to where that is noted in the handbook or is it?

[gallatin07]

Leer and TrojanFan,

I wish i could tell you exactly where that is located in the handbook, but that can be quite a challenge trying to understand in itself. However, I know this is a legitimate rule change because I am in a similar situation trying to figure out the tiebreakers within Region 5-5A. Hendersonville had to forfeit a region game because of an ineligible player which, if Gallatin and Hunters Lane beats Hendersonville, would leave all three schools with one loss in the region. However, because of the forfeit, Hendersonville would only have four region wins compared to five by Gallatin and Hunters Lane. This new rule is the only reason Gallatin is still in the running to be region champs. I've heard that the reasoning behind the change in the rule, is a school in 2A last year got bumped into the playoffs last year because of a forfeited game that gave them an extra win.

As far as Lancaster Christian's reasons for backing out on the game at FACS I think that it was most likely financially related. Lancaster Christian is a school of less than 200 students. Therefore, funding for athletics is hard to come by and with the price of gas being close to $4.00 when they were supposed to play FACS I'm sure the administration felt they could not afford a trip to Memphis. It is unfortunate that this game may cause FACS the top seed, but thats why they have the playoffs. Wish you the best of luck!

[silverpie]

Actually, it was a 5A situation that caused it. Bolton or Bartlett, can't remember which, had clinched a playoff berth after week 9, but because of a third-party forfeit, was suddenly in a must-win on week 10 (they had been practicing on the assumption of resting their starters, and not until the Wednesday before the game did they find out they couldn't).

[gallatin07]

Sorry Silverpie, typo on my part. But yes, you are exactly right, that was the two teams involved. Thanks for the correction.