How many pitches is too many?

[riverdaleman]

I am amazed that no one has brought up the curve ball. Statistics show that the curve ball, slider or whatever you want to call it, cause more arm problems than pitch count. Although I am in agreement that pitchers should not be over worked I disagree with some statements. Even though a pitcher has been working since January, throwing in the bullpen is not the same as throwing in a game. IMO pitch count should be kept low and progress higher as the season goes on. Also the number of breaking balls should be kept low. Most coaches have a kid that throws mostly breaking balls, IMO these are the at risk kids.

 

i brought it up a few posts ago

[Tennesseesportsfan]

i brought it up a few posts ago

 

 

 

Sorry riverdaleman, I edited my post. Just trying to make a point that breaking balls are more of a problem than pitch count.

[riverdaleman]

Sorry riverdaleman, I edited my post. Just trying to make a point that breaking balls are more of a problem than pitch count.

 

i agree

[StealthBuster]

I am amazed that more hasn't been brought up about the curve ball. Statistics show that the curve ball, slider or whatever you want to call it, cause more arm problems than pitch count. Although I am in agreement that pitchers should not be over worked I disagree with some statements. Even though a pitcher has been working since January, throwing in the bullpen is not the same as throwing in a game. IMO pitch count should be kept low and progress higher as the season goes on. Also the number of breaking balls should be kept low. Most coaches have a kid that throws mostly breaking balls, IMO these are the at risk kids. To the parents of the kid who threw 160 pitches, have a talk with your coach.

 

See post #24

[Tennesseesportsfan]

Amen. The "Weekend Warrior Coaches" have hurt more arms than HS coaches ever will. Most HS coaches have a set rotation of 4-5 days and stick to it.

Dr. William Andrews, he's the Dr. all the pros go to for surgery says " No curve balls till the boy is shaving." (15-16 yrs. old). Change ups are much more affective at a younger age, with little stress on the elbow & arm.

 

 

Most HS pitchers should not go 7 innings.

 

 

We agree on the breaking ball but I have to disagree on your "weekend warrior coach". Most small school coaches will over pitch a kid because they normally have 1 quality pitcher. Alot of small high schools dont have the numbers to have a 4-5 day rotation. Quality travel teams have plenty of pitching and have no reason to over pitch a kid. Even a D1 prospect is lucky to go 7 innings because they have other pitchers that have relief roles. This is why I would say a high school coach is more likely to overpitch a kid.

[StealthBuster]

We agree on the breaking ball but I have to disagree on your "weekend warrior coach". Most small school coaches will over pitch a kid because they normally have 1 quality pitcher. Alot of small high schools dont have the numbers to have a 4-5 day rotation. Quality travel teams have plenty of pitching and have no reason to over pitch a kid. Even a D1 prospect is lucky to go 7 innings because they have other pitchers that have relief roles. This is why I would say a high school coach is more likely to overpitch a kid.

 

If that happens at small schools,shame on the coach. He needs to develop more pitchers or get out of coaching. IMO no kid should throw 150-200 pitches /week.

Most teams have 2 "quality"pitchers and a bunch of "inning eaters". But I understand your point.

[tigertim2]

If that happens at small schools,shame on the coach. He needs to develop more pitchers or get out of coaching. IMO no kid should throw 150-200 pitches /week.

Most teams have 2 "quality"pitchers and a bunch of "inning eaters". But I understand your point.

 

 

The coach who pitched the kid 160 pitches is a Middle School coach. I have also seen coaches leave a kid in too long IMO but I simply could not believe it when I was told that this had occurred. I spoke with 3 different people who were there and they confirmed it. The home team had given up 4 runs in the top of the 1st when the coach brought the kid in. He left the kid in for the rest of the game. The visiting team scored 3 runs in the top of the 7th and final inning to win the game 11 to 9.

[66in74]

Some on this post have mentioned innings. That's very old school.

It's about the number of pitches. PERIOD. /excl.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":excl:" border="0" alt="excl.gif" />

[ksgovols]

Yep. I agree. As far as developing pitchers is concerned, that does start at the youth league level and should continue on up. Our middle school coach assisted at the college level way back when and he's just now getting to 50 pitches an outing for his pitchers. Started them off at 40. With a basketball schedule to work around and a limited pre-season practice regimen, he's hoping to work them up to 70 pitches per outing by the end of the season. That means he has to throw several guys in the course of a week. That develops pitching. JV, freshmen and out of district games at the high school level should use the same philosophy.

 

I'd like to see more stats on curve balls versus fast balls after puberty. Curve balls are an off speed pitch and once growth plates aren't involved, I would think they wouldn't be any harder on the arm than throwing as hard as you can with your fast ball. This is just opinion since I was a breaking ball type pitcher. I've seen a DI prospect's arm quiver and convulse for hours after a game. The kid threw 90+ fastballs most of the time. That's got to be just as hard on an arm as a 60 mph curveball imo. I do agree with fastball/changeup until they hit puberty though. Breaking off a curve ball from 46' is much more stressful to an arm than the 60'-6" version. Screwballs should be outlawed all together.

[Mwalls14]

Some on this post have mentioned innings. That's very old school.

It's about the number of pitches. PERIOD. /excl.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":excl:" border="0" alt="excl.gif" />

 

 

While I do agree with you, you may want to take that up with the TSSAA, because they are the ones who have the rules on innings and not pitches thrown. Innings thrown can be very misleading, I believe

[govols10]

Great discussion on this topic and one that is a hotly debated subject. Here are some thoughts based on discussions I have had at many ball parks and with a few former MLB pitchers regarding this.

1) Innings really mean very little - number of pitches are what matters. This defies all pitching rules including most travel ball tournaments which are all based on # of innings. Walks AND srikeouts leads to high pitch counts. I have seen kids go 6 innings and throw under 60 pitches and then I have seen kids throw 60 pitches in 2 innings. You have to count pitches and not depend on innings to keep arms healthy.

2) This will surprise some as it did me and took some time for me to believe: If a curve ball is taught properly and thrown properly then it does not hurt the arm. An improper curve call and a slider both will destroy a young arm. Most injuries from curve balls are due to throwing it incorrectly which is common for young pitchers that are learning to throw a spinner.

3) The curve ball is the most overused pitch at the high school and below levels and the changeup is the most underused. The best off speed pitch - especially for a hard fastball pitcher - is the changeup. This is especially true if the kids learn to throw a circle change. The arm movements are the same as the fast ball which creates more deception to hitters plus you get movement with a well developed circle change. The changeup does not hurt the arm.

4) Conditioning is as important to healthy arms as any other factor.

 

There is more information and awareness regarding maintaining healthy arms than ever before. If you have a son that is a pitcher then research and read as much as you can. The coaches make the game decisions but the parents can do several things at home to help with keeping arms healthy and strong.

[ksgovols]

Good post.