Rule Question...Does the run count?

[dore83]

Sounds like a double play to end the inning, it is a force back at first no tag needed. Just because the runner on 3rd happens to get home before the throws makes it back to first doesn't matter.

 

If the player on first had also tagged & was thrown out at second after the runner from 3rd crossed the plate the run would have counted.

 

Hey, I could be wrong but thats how I see it. /flower.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":flower:" border="0" alt="flower.gif" />

 

A force and failing to retouch are two completely different things.

 

Failing to retouch is not a force. If a runner is called out for the 3rd out on appeal for not retouching (tagging up), any preceding runs score unless the appeal is made before they cross the plate. See ASA Rule 1 - Definitions (Force Out), and ASA POE #1 Appeals - J & K.

 

FORCE OUT A force out is an out which may be made only when a runner loses the right to the base that the runner is occupying because the batter becomes a batter-runner, and before the batter-runner or a succeeding runner has been put out.

 

The runner did not lose her right to the base because the ball was caught, the batter-runner was out, and the initial runner on first did not have to vacate the base - therefore there is no force play.

 

Instead, it was a failure to retouch. Throwing the ball to 1B is a live ball appeal of a "base left too early." Runs scored BEFORE the appeal count even if it was the 3rd out of an inning because it is considered a "timing play."

 

BTW, this situation is one that has been on the "40 softball rule myths" list put out by umpires for years now. The run scores.

[TBALLEXPERT]

But don't the throw to the cutoff mean anything? I think it became a fielders choice play. What was the runner on third suppose to do just stand and watch? Will look foward to an answer instead of all this guessing, and I ain't sure I'm right either!

 

 

The runner on third was doing what they were supposed to do,tagging up with no thought of the idiot on first who didn't! /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" />

[TBALLEXPERT]

A force and failing to retouch are two completely different things.

 

Failing to retouch is not a force. If a runner is called out for the 3rd out on appeal for not retouching (tagging up), any preceding runs score unless the appeal is made before they cross the plate. See ASA Rule 1 - Definitions (Force Out), and ASA POE #1 Appeals - J & K.

 

FORCE OUT A force out is an out which may be made only when a runner loses the right to the base that the runner is occupying because the batter becomes a batter-runner, and before the batter-runner or a succeeding runner has been put out.

 

The runner did not lose her right to the base because the ball was caught, the batter-runner was out, and the initial runner on first did not have to vacate the base - therefore there is no force play.

 

Instead, it was a failure to retouch. Throwing the ball to 1B is a live ball appeal of a "base left too early." Runs scored BEFORE the appeal count even if it was the 3rd out of an inning because it is considered a "timing play."

 

BTW, this situation is one that has been on the "40 softball rule myths" list put out by umpires for years now. The run scores.

 

 

Great Post! /flower.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":flower:" border="0" alt="flower.gif" />

[KenHawk]

Page 19 of the 2009 NFHS Softball Rule Book,

Rule 2, Article 12;

Tag-Ups "If a runner leaves a base too soon on a caught fly ball and returns to retag, this is considered a time play and not a force out. If the appeal is the third out, all runs scored by runners in advance of the appealed runner and scored before the legal appeal would count."

 

Run counts.

[Antwan]

Page 19 of the 2009 NFHS Softball Rule Book,

Rule 2, Article 12;

Tag-Ups "If a runner leaves a base too soon on a caught fly ball and returns to retag, this is considered a time play and not a force out. If the appeal is the third out, all runs scored by runners in advance of the appealed runner and scored before the legal appeal would count."

 

Run counts.

 

 

I agree...but it is an interesting scenario. I had to think about it.

[riverdaleman]

The RUN COUNTS!!!! if the runner at 3rd touched home before the put out was made the RUN COUNTS if the run had not crossed the plate before the put out then obviously it does not count!!!!This is not a force play....the runner was not FORCED to leave first. he had to go back but wasnt forced to leave...so the RUN DOES COUNT!!!

[muffin]

The RUN COUNTS!!!! if the runner at 3rd touched home before the put out was made the RUN COUNTS if the run had not crossed the plate before the put out then obviously it does not count!!!!This is not a force play....the runner was not FORCED to leave first. he had to go back but wasnt forced to leave...so the RUN DOES COUNT!!!

 

Glad that we agree.

[66in74]

Good Post by those that quoted the rules. Run counts if player crossed home before the 3rd out.

 

2 Questions:

Did the runner cross home before the 3rd out was made?

What did the umpire call?

[MTUMP]

Situation: 1 out, runners on 1st and 3rd, Fly ball to left field. Fly ball caught for out 2, runner on 3rd tags and crosses the plate. Runner on first may have been stealing and is rounding second as the fly ball is caught. The throw from the cut off beats the runner back to first for out 3. Does the run still count?

 

 

The run counts

[trucko]

It counts.

 

But out of curiosity...Did the umps there NOT let it count? /blink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":blink:" border="0" alt="blink.gif" /> Or should I ask,..Why are you asking? /flower.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":flower:" border="0" alt="flower.gif" />

 

This happened at the Cookeville tournament this past weekend and the umps did count the run (no argument or appeal was made). It seems like just when I think I know all the rules, a situation always arises that reassures me I will NEVER know all the rules!

[mwtfan]

Situation: 1 out, runners on 1st and 3rd, Fly ball to left field. Fly ball caught for out 2, runner on 3rd tags and crosses the plate. Runner on first may have been stealing and is rounding second as the fly ball is caught. The throw from the cut off beats the runner back to first for out 3. Does the run still count?

 

If, in the ump's opinion the runner touched home before the throw from left reached first, the run counts.

 

Source (MLB, but the rule is the same for softball): http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2008/off...on_of_terms.pdf

 

scroll down to the top of page 5 - duplicate of your situation as an example.

 

The umps blew this one.

 

This same document defines a Force play as "...a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner."

 

That is not the case in this situation.

[silverpie]

The umps blew this one.

 

This same document defines a Force play as "...a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner."

 

That is not the case in this situation.

 

 

No, that means they got it right. He said they did count the run--in other words, that the run scores. (Intended as emphatic, the "did" was, but sometimes causes the brain to fill in what it thinks is a missing "not.")