2012 last year for Traditional State Tournament?

[rcpatriot]

Rcpatriot, I'm not sure how you felt singled out? Did anyone say your name? Obviously I have great love for the sport and all that are involved. What I meant by real teams or coaches is exactly that. People who put forth the effort regardless of the outcome. When I see the list of teams that voted I see a lot that I wouldn't consider real teams and or coaches. Teams that have a few wrestlers, no coach or somebody from the hallway looking to get their stipend. So based on your reply am I

Understanding that because of your struggle you have decided to give up and lessen the sport so the goals are more attainable? I guess your definition of a wrestler and mine are two different things. Good luck in your quest and hopefully it will now be easier for you.

 

No, I don't feel singled out but do take issue with you stating that anyone was or wasn't a "real" coach. My comments are directed to you wanting to state that the reason some of the programs in this state are falling behind is because they don't have "real" coaches and/or "real" wrestling programs. Until you have walked in our shoes, give us a little respect and credit for at least attempting to physically do something to help the sport instead of getting on a forum and running your mouth about it.

Not one of my comments had anything to do with a small school individual state tournament. Until all the facts are in, I'll reserve my "official" vote for later.

[sweeptheleg]

No, I don't feel singled out but do take issue with you stating that anyone was or wasn't a "real" coach. My comments are directed to you wanting to state that the reason some of the programs in this state are falling behind is because they don't have "real" coaches and/or "real" wrestling programs. Until you have walked in our shoes, give us a little respect and credit for at least attempting to physically do something to help the sport instead of getting on a forum and running your mouth about it.

Not one of my comments had anything to do with a small school individual state tournament. Until all the facts are in, I'll reserve my "official" vote for later.

Rc, you obviously took offense and thought I was talking about you personally. Now before you get defensive and think everyone is talking about you maybe you need to take your own advice and not assume things. I did not single anyone out or call anyone by name. I respect all who try to better our sport regardless of how many medals you win. That's my whole point. Our sport builds champions in life. Without saying too much I can assure you I have put in as much anyone you know. Would you honestly in your opinion say we have 30,40,60 serious wrestling schools? Wouldn't the answer be to get better coaching in the 100 other schools? Help them build youth and middle school programs ? What good is adding more schools that don't support or understand our sport when we have plenty that need help now? Why don't we promote the sport , fill the teams we have, beg schools with multiple quality coaches to try and take over one of these programs? I'm sorry you felt I was referring to you as I can assure you I was not.

[TDArtist]

Sweeptheleg....

 

Do you honestly believe the words that you write? Which do you think is more likely to happen?

 

A. We create an A/AA division, kids start medaling and the sport of wrestling grows.

 

B. The schools with multiple quality coaches will tell those coaches to go out to schools with no "real" wrestling programs to start feeder programs, organize middle school tournaments and turn around a high school program.

 

So, according to your logic, I can expect a few Bradley coaches up here to start a few programs next week? The Soddy guys are heading out to Memphis to get them cranked back up next Thursday. The Science Hill extras are heading over to Cosby to get those guys straightened out on Friday. Everyone's answer is to promote the sport - does that mean that we haven't been promoting the sport? I send stuff in to the newspapers daily and I bug the writers constantly to get more stuff in the papers.....and they do better than most. No local high schools have called me lately and said, "I saw this article in the paper and....." It's unrealistic.

 

I'm not sure that an A/AA state tournament is the answer to wrestling's problems. I know that what we are doing now is not working. We've added 16 programs in 21 years. Something's got to change or we will be relegated to second class citizen status forever.

[sweeptheleg]

Sweeptheleg....

 

Do you honestly believe the words that you write? Which do you think is more likely to happen?

 

A. We create an A/AA division, kids start medaling and the sport of wrestling grows.

 

B. The schools with multiple quality coaches will tell those coaches to go out to schools with no "real" wrestling programs to start feeder programs, organize middle school tournaments and turn around a high school program.

 

So, according to your logic, I can expect a few Bradley coaches up here to start a few programs next week? The Soddy guys are heading out to Memphis to get them cranked back up next Thursday. The Science Hill extras are heading over to Cosby to get those guys straightened out on Friday. Everyone's answer is to promote the sport - does that mean that we haven't been promoting the sport? I send stuff in to the newspapers daily and I bug the writers constantly to get more stuff in the papers.....and they do better than most. No local high schools have called me lately and said, "I saw this article in the paper and....." It's unrealistic.

 

I'm not sure that an A/AA state tournament is the answer to wrestling's problems. I know that what we are doing now is not working. We've added 16 programs in 21 years. Something's got to change or we will be relegated to second class citizen status forever.

 

Rc/td so even though we can't field competitive teams across the board your logic is that we can field brand new teams and make the sport grow? By dividing the state it's going to somehow bring quality, passionate people out of the woodwork to start new programs when 60% of the ones we have are in disarray? I'm

Not trying to argue or fight. I'm trying to understand your logic? If you

Poll the successful programs ask them how they did it. Ask Pigeon Forge how they turned that program around. You have to have a product people want to be a part of. Get them started young, exspose them to wrestling. Pound the halls talking the best athletes into wrestling, especially in middle school. Make the matches exciting, play music, invite the elementary kids and let them in free. It's not easy and in some cases it's hard to start a culture that's not already ingrained. just because your teams haven't had the most success doesn't mean you haven't tried or you aren't a good coach. Nobody is saying that. What myself and a lot of other people obviously feel is that there are many, many teams/schools without a proper program in place to be successful. Why don't we focus on making our state better instead of bigger?

[russianbear]

Population growth by state since 2000 (Based on a 15 state sampling of either border states to Tennessee or popular wrestling states)

 

Georgia 20%

North Carolina 16%

Colorado 16%

South Carolina 13%

Iowa 12%

Virginia 11%

California 8%

Tennessee 6%

Indiana 5%

Alabama 4%

Illinois 4%

New York 3%

Ohio 1%

Pennsylvania (2%)

Kentucky (7%)

 

 

PERCENTAGE of participation increase for high school wrestling

 

Alabama 44% (3 divisions in 2000 and 3 divisions in 2010)

From 1,480 participants in 2000 to 2,138 in 2010

 

North Carolina 44% (3 divisions in 2000, split to 4 in 2008)

7,103 participants in 2000 to 10,238 in 2010

 

South Carolina 40% (3 divisions in 2000 and 3 divisions in 2010)

3,395 participants in 2000, 4,290 participants in 2010

 

Georgia 35% (5 divisions in 2000 and 5 divisions in 2010)

6,274 participants in 2000 and 8,490 in 2010

 

Illinois 35% (2 divisions in 2000, 3 divisions beginning 2003)

13,118 participants in 2000 17,814 in 2010

 

Virginia 26% (3 divisions in 2000, 3 divisions in 2010)

5,896 participants in 2000, 7,459 in 2010

 

Pennsylvania 17% (2 divisions in 2000, 2 divisions in 2010)

8,424 participants in 2000, 9,928 participants in 2010)

 

Kentucky 16% (1 division in 2000, 1 division in 2010)

1,407 participants in 2000, 1,633 participants in 2010

 

California 15% (1 division in 2000, 1 division in 2010)

23,858 participants in 2000, 27,469 participants in 2010

 

New York 15% (1 divisions in 2000, 2 divisions in 2010)

12,095 participants in 2000, 13,923 in 2010

 

Tennessee 14% (2 divisions in 2000, 2 divisions in 2010)

3,752 participants in 2000, 4,290 in 2010

 

Iowa (-4%) (3 divisions in 2000, 3 divisions in 2010)

6.927 participants in 2000, 6,665 participants in 2010

 

Indiana (-11%) (2 divisions in 2000, 2 divisions in 2010)

8,749 participants in 2000, 7,854 in 2010

 

Colorado (-11%) (4 divisions in 2000, 4 divisions in 2010)

5,683 participants in 2000, 5,067 in 2010

 

 

 

Important facts. First off one of the posters used Colorado as a model example. BAD EXAMPLE, as it is one of the few states where participation has DECLINED (dramatically) while the state population has increased (dramatically).

 

Second, it’s important to note that since 2000, only 3 of these states have actually had a split (North Carolina, New York and Illinois). And North Carolina has just recently split (08) which by no means has helped to increase participation from 2000 –2008.

 

Third I didn’t research the population growth as according to high school aged children, but instead just general population growth. For example though Georgia has had population growth of a whopping 20% over the last 10 years, I believe it would be safe to assume this percentage is even higher among high school aged children, as there was a tremendous influx with the Hope Scholarships.

 

Fourth, the amount of factors that could attribute to increased participation in high school wrestling are limitless. Everything from more coaches, to money, to weather, to popularity of other sports, to kids clubs, to middle school programs to how “nice†the state tourney, etc. all play a part.

 

But here is the bottom line:

 

There is no direct correlation among multiple state champions and participation rates. To infer that splitting divisions will increase participation is ABSOLUTELY ABSURB!

 

The only given that comes with splitting divisions is more medals and watered down competition.

Edited February 24, 2011 by russianbear

[ghouse]

Russianbear,

 

Not sure I am buying all of your facts. I am pretty sure that the NY state tournament was not two divisions in 2000 as you have listed. Actually, this can be confirmed by checking the webpage below which states that 2011 was the 8th year of the two division split meaning that it was still a single division in 2000.

 

http://www.nysphsaawrestling.com/

 

Not sure what else you may have missed but you may need to check some of your information again and none of it may change your analysis but if you are going to present things as facts they should be checked. My apologies in advance if I am wrong on that but I was pretty sure I remembered the discussion from when NY split their tournament and the webpage above confirms that.

[russianbear]

Russianbear,

 

Not sure I am buying all of your facts. I am pretty sure that the NY state tournament was not two divisions in 2000 as you have listed. Actually, this can be confirmed by checking the webpage below which states that 2011 was the 8th year of the two division split meaning that it was still a single division in 2000.

 

http://www.nysphsaawrestling.com/

 

Not sure what else you may have missed but you may need to check some of your information again and none of it may change your analysis but if you are going to present things as facts they should be checked. My apologies in advance if I am wrong on that but I was pretty sure I remembered the discussion from when NY split their tournament and the webpage above confirms that.

Thanks for keeping me in check Ghouse, you may be right, as I'm posting this before I double check it. I had to flip back and forth from several different sites to put all this together. It's possible I've made one or two minor mistakes, but overall this should be accurate as I used each states website. If you catch anything else, feel free to point it out.

 

EDIT - You are correct Ghouse, I missed that one. I edited my earlier post.

Edited February 24, 2011 by russianbear

[texas23]

This data is really not an analysis at all, it is a very brief look at some information and then an opinion.

 

Like you said in your fourth point, the reason are limitless and that would include a division split. That data does not prove or disprove anything (in my opinion).

 

I am not a proponent of yet another division, but this argument so far has not been moved one direction or the other based on this data.

[smwwrest]

Actually, the information provided above likely supports that more classifications will increase participation. Two states listed that are most like TN are probably AL and GA. Both have had significant increases in the number of participating wrestlers. Could it be the number of classifications? To get the real data, you would need to go back to the date of the split and then compare. Eliminating or neutralizing facts such as declines in the general population.

[baller95]

This data is really not an analysis at all, it is a very brief look at some information and then an opinion.

 

Like you said in your fourth point, the reason are limitless and that would include a division split. That data does not prove or disprove anything (in my opinion).

 

I am not a proponent of yet another division, but this argument so far has not been moved one direction or the other based on this data.

 

The only thing i can see is that most states have more than 2 divisions and most seem to be increasing in participation. I dont believe the two go along together necessarily. I believe wrestling is growing more popular with the growth of high school backed youth programs and AAU/USA promotional activity. Popularity has also grown along with telivised sports that have wrestling ties.

 

I will note that some states completely seperate their independent schools and are not included in the division count that was presented orginally by RBear. Virginia is an example VHSL - 3 divisions VISAA - 1 division. And just to tidbit - in VA two of the 3 best teams (historically) are AA - Christiansburg and Grundy. Some would say a AA title is tougher to win than a AAA title in VA. Point being seperation doesnt always mean the better teams are in the largest division.

 

I am not really sure seperating the divisions hurts the sport, but i am not sure it helps it grow either. I do think seperation puts all team sports on a level playing field. That obviously matters to some in wrestling or no one would care who won the team score at individual state. 2 AA/A teams finished in the top 20 at ind. state from what i can remember.

 

I personally dont see that seperation hurts TN high school wrestling or helps it. I personally like 1 champion per weight class. Means more to the individiual, however as long as team scores in individual state matters to coaches and fans, the push for separation will continue and are justified also. Tough to have a perfect set-up and please all.

[cchulk]

Looking at russian bear's numbers for increase in wrestling participants and number of divisions, it appears that all the growth of over 20% came from only the states that have more than 2 division. All of those with 1 or 2 divisions had less than 20% growth. Looks to me like, over time, that multiple divisions led to greater participation. Does any one else interpret it that way?

[russianbear]

Looking at russian bear's numbers for increase in wrestling participants and number of divisions, it appears that all the growth of over 20% came from only the states that have more than 2 division. All of those with 1 or 2 divisions had less than 20% growth. Looks to me like, over time, that multiple divisions led to greater participation. Does any one else interpret it that way?

The entire point I was trying to make (apparently I didn't do a very good job) was that there is no direct correlation one way or the other with participation and splitting the divisions. I believe most have it backwards.

 

Instead of splitting divisions causing growth, growth is causing divisions to be split.

 

Changing subjects, I just received a bit of good news that should make everyone happy. 6 years ago the kids club AAU wrestling in TN had 2200 participants. 4 years ago 2300. The last two years over 4000! Praise God. We are about to see growth.

Edited February 24, 2011 by russianbear