Is it OK to lie about stats?

[bigbluevolley]

Everyone in Knoxville that follows volleyball knows who is keeping stats for Farragut. Volleyball stats are not rocket science.....it happens to be quite easy. The head coach is in charge of everything pertaining to the program. If she is not overseeing what goes out to the paper that is irresponsible. If she is and allows bogus stats to go out to the paper she should be fired. A good rule of thumb, for any program, would be to NOT have mothers of players keep stats.

Knoxvb is 100% correct on this. The coach is responsible for which stats go in the paper and the FHS volleyball stats are always in there. Now whether she faxes them or calls them in is another story. Shame on her if she isn't the one doing this. The buck ultimatley stops with her and only her.

[AdmiralGlasgow]

I still don't think its a big deal. See my reply in the other thread (you made a thread just for me!!!!!!)

[jensat16]

It is a black-mark on some teams that they're stats are way off or the line calls can be questionable. I do my daughters games judging lines and so far am perfect...lol...but in all seriousness if my daugher foot faulted in the last point of a game to win state I would wave the flag. How can we expect our kids to be fair and honest if we aren't? The girls win it or lose it on their own accord. When I cheer in the stands I am pretty loud to be sure but I never cheer if the other team makes a mistake but only if we win the point. I feel it is in bad taste to cheer if the opposing team serves it out or in the net etc. Lastly in the Chatt area we are not sure if it is done maliciously or by ignorance but some teams stats are absurd. The kills out number the sets by hundreds....teams that have a total of 2 blocks in THREE games against us have 2 girls with most blocks in the area...why does it disappear when we meet them on the court? Some teams have two girls with more digs then any other team has one girl on the leaderboard and they have a 500 record. And the list goes on and on. I feel the paper should do a minimum of verification and if the numbers don't make sense they should refuse to print them. Thankfully, College coaches see the girls play and see the level of athleticism, skill sets, and passion and do not rely on stats. Don't know how it can be cleaned up for the girls sake but it should be....

[AdmiralGlasgow]

Thanks for posting jensat16. You see people, this happens all over the state. The title of this topic is misleading too because it insinuates that the Farragut coach is doing this intentionally which I highly doubt is the case.

[PHargis]

Thanks for posting jensat16. You see people, this happens all over the state. The title of this topic is misleading too because it insinuates that the Farragut coach is doing this intentionally which I highly doubt is the case.

For anyone to think that keeping stats is easy, they absolutely have never done it or are only half doing it. From all over the state, much of this is being done by players on the bench to teach them not only how its done but to teach them the game. Are they perfect, no. Do coaches look at these, most of the time on the high school level. For the past 7 years, some parts of the state complain about stats and if I wanted to be cruel I could name them and after looking at some of them and asking the best Stat keeper we have had on this site, Pageman, he arrived at an astonishing conclusion. If you want to complain about them, just try doing it and see how long you want to continue. Keeping stats is done by coaches to meet their purposes. They can do it however they want and likely they are. Some have even purchased hand held devices to do it. Pageman, until he stopped just lately, kept them at Page High School for the parents and meticulously made all of the numbers work out after each match. Looking at his work, and he posted most of it on this site, it did take him two to three hours which a lot of people did not want to wait on. He did this for some schools for them to see if what they were doing was right, for a price. I don't think he found anyone he thought was perfect because sometimes, one would need to go back and look how the play developed to see what the correct call was. If a coach wants to publish their stats and feel confident they are reasonable and a paper wants to publish them, they should do it. After all, Colleges and Universities do it and within a few minutes after the match is over you can find the information on their web sites. How many times do you hear of a whole conference up in arms about a schools stats, none. Pardon Me, but thats not what all of this is about. And not to be redundant, everyone on here complaining knows the reason this is coming up, little Janies parents and Janie thought she should have gotten an award and the school complaining did not keep stats so everyone should stop. I say baloney and if someone is not keeping stats right, try to show them how and only turn in those that you might have less rule of error. But to keep coaches from keeping stats and turning them in is someone who has little time to do anything else. So I say to this 2 year coach, you are the coach of your team. You know the information you need. Two people comparing stats will not always agree. You put them in the paper for those interested to look at them and not agree with them. I certainly hope this is not a situation when a group of parents is getting a Club coach involved in something at a High School with a High school coach. But creditable information, right or wrong, is needed.

[JamesVB]

I think some people here are as guilty as they are saying the coach is with regards to making sure everything under their name is always 100% correct before it being published. "The Farragut coach is making up stats and then sending them to the papers". Nothing in that sentence has been proven in the slightest. It wasn't even qualified with a "may be" or "allegedly" or "appears to be". Just people jumping to the worst possible conclusion about someone because your kid probably goes to a rival school.

 

I kept the stats for my high school team here in Knoxville back in the day. I was 17, got some basic training and a pencil and a clipboard. I think I was pretty good at it (and seeing them I'm still fiddling with volleyball stats all these years later I obviously enjoyed it). But I doubt I was perfect. And I can't imagine a group of parents working themselves up into a frenzy over what I was doing like I'm seeing here.

 

And here's something that will be a big shocker to a lot of parents and fans. Coaches don't care as much about these things as we do. They have much bigger concerns on their team than what the volunteer statistician is counting as an assist. We think it's the biggest thing in our world, they're too busy trying to win games to care.

 

I know most responses will ignore my reasoning and jump straight to "so you're saying it's OK to lie. Great example you're setting for the kids." So let me say now, no it's not OK to lie. But no one here knows that the coach is lying. In fact, no one here can honestly say if the coach even knows there might be a problem with the stats. And that's my problem with this thread. Even the title is ridiculous. "Is it OK to lie about stats?" is like the question "Do you still beat your wife?" It's purposefully phrased by a questioner with a axe to grind to bring a negative answer not a rational discussion of issues.

 

As for the proper course from here, why not just email the coach and ask rather than dragging them through the mud publicly with a very possibly false allegation? They might appreciate the heads up if something is wrong they don't know about. But If you didn't get a proper answer that way then write the sports editor of the paper and tell them your concern -- not about the coach but about the validity of the numbers they are publishing.

 

Seems like this was the nuclear option and people went for it first rather than something more subtle for their own ends.

Edited October 10, 2011 by JamesVB

[JamesVB]

BTW - can someone post some links to these Farragut stats being posted? Despite my distaste for the way some people are talking about this, I am a stickler for stats and am curious about what they're doing wrong. I found two stories but no box scores. One of the stories said the setter had like 50 assists while the other story said 50 sets -- that's a big distinction. Definitely need more info to figure out what's going on!

[bigfoot1200]

On a companion post a CAK coach and parent pointed out that the Farragut coach is making up stats (saying that the setter had 60 assists when she had less than 10) and then sending them to the papers.

 

Is that acceptable?

 

Doesn't it send wrong the message to the players? How is this different than cheating?

YES.

All high schools should have a class on keeping stats. They should be recorded just like colleges to transfer over. Many schools don't keep accurate ones or any at all for a 'career high' stats. For this reason college coaches are aware they may not be accurate.

 

In college the statistics are very detailed however with technology - lap tops and spread sheets it would be easy to keep stats as long as every one knows what to record and does it the same.

 

Assist: is the set which preceeds a kill/point. Any player can set someone for a kill. Kills are not always generated from a set. (ex. could be an overpass).

Points are not always generated from a kill- ex. errors and serves.

 

Kill: is a hit which results in a point. which can also be a dunk by the setter or tip from a hitter, or a well placed free ball .

Hitting percentage is the number of times a hitter touches the ball divided by (kills minus the errors by the hitter. Every time a hitter is set and tries a kill she should be counted= TAA. If she hits it wide, long or in the net it is an error. This is why sthe hitters in college will have a negative hitting % ina game.

Babe Ruth is known for having the home runs, however he also had the highest number of strike outs in the league.

A strong team may only play 3 games in a match resulting in fewer numbers; teams that play 4 and 5 games will of course have higher numbers but may not have higher %s.

Colleges also record digs, serving aces and blocks.

[bigfoot1200]

BTW - can someone post some links to these Farragut stats being posted? Despite my distaste for the way some people are talking about this, I am a stickler for stats and am curious about what they're doing wrong. I found two stories but no box scores. One of the stories said the setter had like 50 assists while the other story said 50 sets -- that's a big distinction. Definitely need more info to figure out what's going on!

 

EXAMPLE:

If a team played 3 games - each to 25 points and the setter had 75 assists- then she set before every single point. No aces, no errors, no over-passes etc. that's quite a lot. Is it possible? maybe. in 5 games with over-time it is entirely possible to have high numbers. 50 assists in 3 games is 16/set that is great! Is it correct? not sure. It is not an assist to set someone- they have to earn apoint from it. Just like basketball.......not every pass is an assist.

[loyaladmiral]

WOW!!! I HEARD A RUMOR THAT THERE WAS A WITCH HUNT HAPPENING ON COACH T and apparently for us loyal Farragut fans not responding sooner to these crazy "grassy knoll" consipiracy theories it is an embarrassment and an admission of our guilt that we haven't spoken sooner...our slience must be that of a kid getting their hand caught in a cookie jar.... GOOD GRIEF!!! Here's a thought....WE WERE BUSY!!! We have a LIFE....we work and aside from watching these girls play as many as 3 nights a week, these girls (along with their parents) spent the last couple of weeks preparing for a few things like "PINK OUT" to raise awareness and money for Breast Cancer, we hosted a middle school tournament for Knoxville middle school volleyball and after volunteeering all day Sataurday, they walked in "Making Strides towards Breast Cancer" on Sunday, played Monday, Wednesday and Friday the next week and then there were the prepartions for SENIOR night .... we are teaching these girls about life beyond volleyball and giving back to the community. Shocking but true, we are not just sitting here waiting for the next comment in these two crazy threads to appear.

I also can't help but wonder what everyone would be saying about the Admirals if we were the ones posting this nonsense.

Anyone watching our matches regularly would see clipboards going between players (mostly the younger sitting varsity) and they are learning how to stat.... For all things said on these threads regarding this subject, one thing Coach Davidson is NOT is a CHEATER and to call her one or attempt to ruin the reputation of a coach, school or player is reprehensible. Although I have been to matches where I have witnessed parents keeping stats, the parents at Farragut High School DO NOT...As a matter of fact, if you had any knowledge at all on this subject regarding our team, you would know that the mother of the player in question is the person you would see line judging 99% of the time. One thing she is NOT is a cheat. She WOULD call a foot fault on her own daughter at game point in a championship match - and if she doesn't see something, she would say so...but one thing she has nothing to do with is the stats or reporting them. On that same note, I have witnessed coaches scribble out scores and stats as they are running out the door to catch the bus so while he or she may think "that sounds high" she would not be in the place or time to discern all this.

As far as a "black mark on the school, player, coach" ... whatever. Why doesn't everyone just get out the TAR and FEATHERS! Thank goodness we don't live in Salem!

Are the stats inflated, as one poster previously went so far as to provide word math for everyone...in that specific game, it was highly unlikely that the assists were that high - agreed - but it is most likely a result of clipboards changing hands and not understanding what the "assist" is....Maybe someone would like to suggest that in addition to scorekeeping clinics we should have "how to keep stats and keep your mind" clinics. However, they should offer liability coverage for those willing to take on the challenge because you may need it. As a previous poster mentioned, I too did stats in high school for both football and boys basketball...and we always worked in tandem so that we had eyes watching and hands writing and it was not an easy job. I would never condone blatant misrepesentation of statistics but I would also not jump on a moving train that is trying to derail a coach, school, its players or their accomplishments. These girls have worked hard over the past four years (as have yours) and if they beat you along the way doing it we do not apologize. As AG correctly noted, incorrect stats never changed the outcome of a game....and BTW college recruiters would know by looking at stats that some maybe incorrectly reported.

I am not sure what day jobs you all may have, but might I suggest a career change for some of you....a "spin doctor" for a political campagin as some of you certainly have a gift of twisting words....

 

What you don't see with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth.

[JamesVB]

EXAMPLE:

If a team played 3 games - each to 25 points and the setter had 75 assists- then she set before every single point. No aces, no errors, no over-passes etc. that's quite a lot. Is it possible? maybe. in 5 games with over-time it is entirely possible to have high numbers. 50 assists in 3 games is 16/set that is great! Is it correct? not sure. It is not an assist to set someone- they have to earn apoint from it. Just like basketball.......not every pass is an assist.

 

Yep, I've very very aware of the stat rules, thanks! What I asked for in that post you quoted was for links to where these incorrect stats are being posted becasue I'm having trouble finding them.

[PHargis]

Very good post. Why such a turmoil? Something else is going on here and as it was last year with the ex sage from Oak Ridge, this is pre District Tournament Hype getting players and fans away from the meaning of this special time. And what usually happens this time of the year, it is pre Club Sign-Up time for the next summer. Everyone is piling in to the fray since club signups may be down this year. And who knows, the Farragut Coach may have resisted approving a club before the season is over and got somne parents stirred up. By the way, the high school season is not over and if anything the TSSAA should have a rule that Until the season is over, club should stay out of a School in season. In fact maybe it should be until after the State tournament is over. I can and will go back to her posts of last year if her ethics are so pure and look at what she posted last year with almopst the same wording she has posted this time. Why the concern? Two years in a row now this poster has tried to effect the outcome of the District Tournament with two different Schools and trying to destroy the reputation of two different coaches. I don't know who is behind this but I hope I find out. It is a blackmark on this District and some fine schools.