TNAAU State tournament seeding

[durdon]

Just wanted to throw this idea out there as we were talking about it at practice tonight... We realize how impossible it would be to seed every bracket at state by hand and that using track to do the seeding would be flawed... But the current plan of seeding based off region placing is also unbelievably flawed because it punishes kids who come out of the tougher regions in their particular bracket.. I challenge anyone to find me a bracket this year where at least 2 if not 3 of top 5 kids in a bracket aren't coming out of the same region. Those kids are being punished in there seeding just because the best kid bracket happens to be in there region.

 

My idea on how to quickly and easily seed is to award points based off the placing at each top 100 tournament so that 4th place is 1 point, 3rd is 2 points, 2nd is 3 points, and 1st is four points then double the points for the region tournament because its the quaifier for the state so it should count more. We ran it on about 6 brackets tonight and it really seems to work. A kid who travels to all top 100 tournaments and finishes 2nd in all of them then finishes 2nd at region to that same kid would be the overall number 2 seed and not the 6th seed which is the way it should be. Track will actually calculate the points and spit out the seedlings of all the kids and their points, so the brackets would be a breeze to generate and they would be fair.

 

I look at my sons bracket and he finished 2nd in Chattanooga region to a kid that has lost 1 match all year and as things stand when the brackets are drawn he will get a lower seed than kid out of Knoxville who started wrestling 3 weeks ago and had no one else in his bracket. Under this system he would actually be the overall number 3 seed based on the fact he placed at all the top 100 tourneys and 2nd at our region. The 3rd placer out of Chatt would also be the 5 seed then the kids out of knoxville and region 4 that won their region would still be 6 and 7 th seeds even though they have just a couple of wins this year between them combined which honestly is where they should be. No record to speak of but they won their region so they get a decent seeding.

 

This system will not only balance out the inequtites in the regions but it will also reward the behavior that we want in getting our best wrestlers to show up at every top 100 tournament. Ga changed their seedings for state this year to give more weight to in state matches in an effort to get their best wrestlers from traveling out of state so mich. Think about how much higher attendance would be for all the top 100 tourneys next year if placing in those tourneys will effect seeding at state. This will help make wrestling in our state even stronger if our best kids aretraveling to and showing at all of our top 100 tourneys. The points could be tracked on the team Tennesse website and will generate more interest for top 100 and also the state tourney. Plus this system rewards kids for the work they put in the entire season and not just 1 tournament before state. And sorry josh I don't think we should award points for last years results or state placings.

 

Try this point system out on your bracket and tell me what you think...

[jcddmoon]

Just wanted to throw this idea out there as we were talking about it at practice tonight... We realize how impossible it would be to seed every bracket at state by hand and that using track to do the seeding would be flawed... But the current plan of seeding based off region placing is also unbelievably flawed because it punishes kids who come out of the tougher regions in their particular bracket.. I challenge anyone to find me a bracket this year where at least 2 if not 3 of top 5 kids in a bracket aren't coming out of the same region. Those kids are being punished in there seeding just because the best kid bracket happens to be in there region.

 

My idea on how to quickly and easily seed is to award points based off the placing at each top 100 tournament so that 4th place is 1 point, 3rd is 2 points, 2nd is 3 points, and 1st is four points then double the points for the region tournament because its the quaifier for the state so it should count more. We ran it on about 6 brackets tonight and it really seems to work. A kid who travels to all top 100 tournaments and finishes 2nd in all of them then finishes 2nd at region to that same kid would be the overall number 2 seed and not the 6th seed which is the way it should be. Track will actually calculate the points and spit out the seedlings of all the kids and their points, so the brackets would be a breeze to generate and they would be fair.

 

I look at my sons bracket and he finished 2nd in Chattanooga region to a kid that has lost 1 match all year and as things stand when the brackets are drawn he will get a lower seed than kid out of Knoxville who started wrestling 3 weeks ago and had no one else in his bracket. Under this system he would actually be the overall number 3 seed based on the fact he placed at all the top 100 tourneys and 2nd at our region. The 3rd placer out of Chatt would also be the 5 seed then the kids out of knoxville and region 4 that won their region would still be 6 and 7 th seeds even though they have just a couple of wins this year between them combined which honestly is where they should be. No record to speak of but they won their region so they get a decent seeding.

 

This system will not only balance out the inequtites in the regions but it will also reward the behavior that we want in getting our best wrestlers to show up at every top 100 tournament. Ga changed their seedings for state this year to give more weight to in state matches in an effort to get their best wrestlers from traveling out of state so mich. Think about how much higher attendance would be for all the top 100 tourneys next year if placing in those tourneys will effect seeding at state. This will help make wrestling in our state even stronger if our best kids aretraveling to and showing at all of our top 100 tourneys. The points could be tracked on the team Tennesse website and will generate more interest for top 100 and also the state tourney. Plus this system rewards kids for the work they put in the entire season and not just 1 tournament before state. And sorry josh I don't think we should award points for last years results or state placings.

 

Try this point system out on your bracket and tell me what you think...

I like it. It is a start at least. I think you also have to add some weight to returning State Champions and Placers though.

 

[SAC]

GA also uses tournaments like Liberty Nationals as a qualifier, so rewarding kids for not seeking out tougher competition under your system throws a wrinkle in who is a tougher wrestler versus who did better in TN. I undertsand what you are saying about the current system but there is no perfect way to do it and someone is enevitably going to be unhappy... Nonetheless, I think brainstorming ideas on how to come to an agreed upon method, which is what we are ultimately lacking. As track is being used at more and more tournaments I believe you can use a wrestlers ranking as part of the seeding formula. Kind of like an RPI factor...

[truthsquad]

If your kid is the true #2 in the bracket then he will beat the others who are seeded ahead of him. It makes no sense to use the Top 100 tournaments as seeding criteria because attendance is sporadic. Its a fact of life to those who live in tougher regions that your kid who is 2nd best in the region may be 2nd best in state. If so, thats great, but its not equitable to the Region Champ from another Region to be seeded below a runner up or 3rd placer in your region because he was the unlucky kid who's parent does not live in Chattanooga. This situation happens in high school every year. There are some wrestlers from Region 3 & 4 (high school) who placed 5th or 6th in their region and could be top 6 in the state, when you see the Region Champ from other regions going 0-2. Its just a fact of life, but the region champ from the other region is doing what they are supposed to do, they beat the best in their Region. You can't punish a kid based on sporadic attendance at other tournaments especially given the fact that out of state wreslters attend these tournaments and some of the better TN wrestlers are traveling to national tournaments on these dates and you shouldn't force a kid to choose a lesser tournament because they are worried about state seeding.

 

The only fair way is to seed based on region placement. If your son is truly the #2 seed, he should see your region champion in the finals because 1s & 2s from the same region should be seperated in a standard system. If you are going to use a point system, throw out the Region Tournaments all together and only invite the top 16 from the state at each weight based on your point system. Not a good idea.

[SAC]

I can't belive I am about to say this but the truthsquad is making alot of sense here... Please find me Sunday so we can talk about progress and not this message board blasting. I will most likely be sporting the HAKWEYE black and gold hat.

[LBJ6]

I don't like it. Under that system, you are punishing our national level wrestlers. A kid that places 4th in a top 100 tournament and won his region would be seeded higher than a kid that won a few national championships.

[durdon]

Josh.... I knew u would want points for last year:). Sorry I just think each season should stand on its own....and this system would have hurt Spike since he was sick and missed so much of this season...

 

Sac..... Ga had a Liberty exemption this year because it was the same weekend as their region and they had a 20 top kids going. That was the only reason liberty was part of their criteria this year. Most people will tell you that one of the big problems that GA has is that their top kids aren't wrestling enough in GA tourneys.... Right now our TN elite level youth wrestlers are finally competing at national level. The quantity isn't great but the quality of our top kids very respectable nationally now... As a wrestling organization we should be encouraging our kids to wrestle more in our state because that will make the rest of our kids better and improve the quantity down the road which will improve high school wrestling in our state which really should be our ultimate goal.

 

Thruthsquad.... I really shouldn't have used my son's bracket as an example because that isn't really why I was suggesting this point system... But your counter point that its a cruel world and sometimes you get screwed really doesn't make a lot of sense to me at all...

 

all I am suggesting is that we implement a system that will base seeding at the state based the results at the top 100 tournaments to increase the attendance at those tournaments and to get our elite kids to attend those tourneys... I also think that the region tournaments should actually matter and weigh heavily on the state seeding which is why I doubled the points for the region tourney...

 

Now your argument that "hey that's the way it happens in high school in TN" really holds no barring on this because I think we can all agree that high school wrestling system in our state is far from perfect and very flawed....

 

Now it seems that you have a biased against the Chattanooga area but I wasn't just referring to our region, there is plenty of brackets where region 5 has a couple of kids that are in the top 4 in their bracket and few brackets where regions 4 and 1 do also. I can even think of 1 that region 2 has 2 top kids too...

 

Our goal with the state tournament should be to ensure that every kid has a legitimate chance to earn the spot that they deserve.. Like it our not how a bracket is seeded has a measurable statistical impact on where kids end up placing... Yes, if we allow for true second then seeding really won't impact the top 3 kids as in almost all of our brackets as they measurably better than rest of kids in their bracket but this year for the first time I'm seeing brackets that are 5,6,7 even 8 deep where there's a chance anyone of those kids could place in the top 4.... And even brackets where top 3 finish correctly should we also make sure that kids that should finish 4,5 and 6 get a chance to earn those spots and don't get locked out cause they got stuck on wrong side of the bracket.

 

As the depth improves in this state the seeding of the brackets is really going to matter... I think that our goal should be after the state is over that when we look at every bracket that the kids that deserved to place were able to earn it on the mat. I don't think that any of us want to see kid end up out of the metals who can easily pin the kids who finished 4,5 or 6th because of the way the bracket was randomly drawn...

 

 

Edited March 6, 2013 by durdon

[durdon]

I don't like it. Under that system, you are punishing our national level wrestlers. A kid that places 4th in a top 100 tournament and won his region would be seeded higher than a kid that won a few national championships.

 

Yes this system will reward kids who wrestle in our state at our TNAAU top tournaments and punish those who don't........If we want to build wrestling in our state we need incentivize our best wrestlers to wrestle at our tournaments... It's the only way that we are going to build depth across the state is if our kids can compete against the best of the best... Other than the region tournament we wouldn't be requiring kids to go to top 100 tourneys but it would effect their state seedlings so that's a choice that the elite level kids would need to make... This year the only choice would have liberty or region 2 tourney... As there really was any big national tourneys the weekend of the other top 100's....

 

As thruthsquad said sone of the top 100 tourneys were sparsely attended especially the Memphis one and had state seedlings been impacted I would suspect we would have had at least another 100 maybe 150 kids show up. How much better would it have made that tourney...

 

Right now because there is now so many kids in Nashville and so many tourneys in that area many of those kids their aren't traveling at all anymore much like the majority of Chattanooga kids which long term is going to effect the quality of wrestling in the state if we don't try to promote kids to travel...tying state seeding to top 100 will get those kids to travel...

 

Plus if we are able to get our elite kids to all of our top 100 tourneys then it will start attracting more elite level kids from out of state to attend those meets which will make them stronger tourneys and help wrestling even more in this state....

[shaner10]

State seeding is very confusing as is track wrestling rankings. Not everyone submits final results to track. It wasn't until half way through 2012 that middle Tennessee started using track. Many of those numbers are not accurate and should not be used for seeding purposes. I personally am not a member of track, therefor I do not manually enter wins/losses as many other people do. I actually get confused by looking at track. Which statistic would you actually use to base the seeding on? The percentage given by track for a particular kids wt class? Or another statistic such as the top 100 ranking? I really don't see how one could seed according to track due to the lack of consistency with track rankings. As far as challenging you on finding a bracket were the top 2 or 3 kids of top 5 kids in a bracket are from the same region. Region 2 top 100 tournament at Union County. Bantam 45. 1st Heritage-Region 1, 2nd-Eagle Talon-Region 2, 3rd-Soddy Daisy-Region 3, 4th-Baylor Region 3, 5th and 6th would have went to Wildcat Wrestling-Region 4 and/or Team Clarksville Region 4. That's 6 wrestlers from 4 regions in the same age and wt class. One thing that has changed this year is state qualification. In years past, midget and below did not have to qualify for state. Prime example is last year. I had a tot 40lb that won the region and his first match was against a Baylor kid that didn't wrestle in regions, therefore he got a low seed although he was a very talented wrestler. He actually won the state title and went on to win nationals. TNAAU made a excellent change by making all divisions qualify this year. It limits numbers and ensures good quality wrestling. I personally don't have a opinion on how to seed the state tournament. If it were up to me, I would seed just as many other sports do. 1vs 4, 2 vs 3. I understand that this may be time consuming for those involved considering that we have limited time to construct the brackets. I did attend a top 100 where the grouped the "Excellent Wrestlers" in track and then let the system assign the brackets. It essentially separated the "Excellent Wrestlers" and them paired them with others ranked below excellent. This by no means is my suggestion for seeding. I understand that it is difficult to seed these tournaments and I'm trying to go in open minded. I just want my kid and all kids to have fun and learn.

[shaner10]

One last thing, using the Top 100 may not be accurate as well. We have Georgia kids wrestling in the state tournament that did not attend all top 100 tournaments. I don't agree with this but the rules are the rules. This would alter the point system and seeding.

[durdon]

Shaner - your example of bantam 45 has 2 Chattanooga kids that finished in the top 4 at the union county top 100. Lewis who actually the only time he lost to Shelley was at the region 3 tourney is going to get screwed by the state seeding even though he probably the number 2 or 3 best wrestler in that weight class and he wrestled in 3 of the 4 top 100 tourneys. I just went through the brackets and took 15 minutes and manually did the seedlings which would be a nightmare at state to do all the brackets... I also ran the points off the top 100 and it matched my manual seedlings... I am assuming your kid is in the bracket so you know these kids well so tell me what u think about this seeding and if its fair...

1 seeds

1. Napier

2. Lewis

3. Shelley

4. Smith

2 seeds

1. Csala

2. Gobbell

3. Pope

4. Stahley

 

As it stands right now Lewis and Shelley will be split and there is an 82% chance that one of the will be on the same side with Napier and smith... So 3 of the 4 top seeds are probably going to end up on the same side and one of them will more than likely get locked out of the 3/4 match....

 

All because 2 of them come out of the same region....

 

 

 

 

[CPOPE2]

Ga changed their seedings for state this year to give more weight to in state matches in an effort to get their best wrestlers from traveling out of state so mich.

 

Do yourselves a favor and DO NOT mimic anything that is done by TGA in Georgia. You're right in that they are trying their best to make it difficult to both participate in national-level tournaments AND TGA events. Think about that for a second. Why would you want to hinder the kids who want to get better and travel to Tulsa, Cedar Falls, Kansas City, Reno, VAC, multiple cities in Pa, etc??? Instead of placing limitations, how about making local tournaments more attractive?

 

My suggestion as a parent who is fed up with TGA is to make sure your Top 100 tourneys do not conflict with any top national tourneys and then do your seeding based off a combination of the following:

 

1. Head to head competition

2. Top 100 points

3. Returning State Champs/Placers (same age group)

4. Returning State Champs/Placers (different age group)

 

If someone wants to improve their seeding bad enough, they'll attend the Top 100 tourneys to increase their point totals. Because they're doing this, you'll likely get several head to head battles that you wouldn't have gotten before; thus making the seeding easier. As long as the Top 100 tourneys are not scheduled on the same day as national tourneys, you can set a minimum number required to attend if they want to be seeded (2 would probably be sufficient). Your final criteria could be Trackwrestling, if needed (probably won't be needed though).

 

Just like in Ga, you'll likely have the "travel kids" who don't give 2 s**ts about where they're seeded. You'll also have the same group that likes to run and avoids all competition cuz they want the best seed (again, you can eliminate this with the 2 Top 100 tourney min).