RUNNING THE SCORE UP...2013 Edition

[BigG]

Big G.....I am very aware that no system is flawless and I am only responding to you because you're right....you have not been demeaning.  If the University of Alabama Football team repeatedly wins National Championships operating under the same rules as every other school in it's division, then there really is no arguement.  This is not occuring in this High School organization....you have schools with rules that enable them to have an advantage that schools in the same division do not have.  The current system is bad because it gets proven over and over that some schools have a virtual monopoly of the contests.  I would be interested to see what the overall record is at CAK over the last, say, 12 years and how many titles they have won?  The reason I pick them is because they have steadily remained in A-AA over the years.  I have no doubt the coaching is excellent, but it has been stated that the success over time is because the quality of the players has remained the same.  I'm not picking on the girls either....look at the same things in boys soccer, baseball, tennis, softball, etc.....my guess is the trend is continuing to favor the private schools.  Does it make private schools bad people?  Heavens NO.....some of the finest people I know work and operate in these institutions.  As I said, no system is flawless but the one you use should make the playing field somewhat EQUAL.  Currently, it is not....and that is the truth.  I'm seeing in East Tennessee over the years some solid teams in soccer not getting experiences at the state level because they get knocked off by defacto elite teams that get to train together year round because of the city in which they reside.  They only A-AA teams that can beat KC or CAK have to come from a private school in a large metropoliton area.  The best public school team this season is argueably G-P, and they just got smoked by CAK 5-1.....which happens every year. 

 

Kaz

 

 

 

 

Well said.  And I agree with what you are saying.

 

My question to you are these...

 

1. Is your solution to make all private schools play in division 2?  

 

2.  If so, what is your thinking about magnet schools and open zoned schools playing division 1?

 

3.  What do you think the inequity is?  Is it a money thing, a talent thing, a club soccer thing?  (I believe you said something about being in the same city that they can play year round... I would argue that it could be possible for the smaller schools to do so.  Not easy, mind you, but doable).

 

I would truly appreciate your views and opinions.  I don't mind a healthy debate or discussion.  I just don't care for things if they get personal or insulting.

Edited October 23, 2013 by BigG

[kazam37]

The current positioning of schools is based, somewhat, on enrollment at the institution.  I am not as aware of Magnet Schools or open zoned publics, so I'm not real sure what their operating advantages are unless they are in a significantly populated area.  Seriously....the larger the population in the area, then obviously your going to be able to "pull" players toward your school based on the schools reputation.  Tell me about Magnets and Open Zoned schools and show me what kind of representation they have? (any high profile schools would be great)  The inequality is the types of players that can be brought into your program that other schools can't.  Endowments at Privates allow them to funnel money into programs that enhance the lure of kids to go there,  Unless a public school just happens to have a wealthy benefactor who wants to throw his/her money at the school....this is a rare occurance in any public school.  The solution to a lot of the problems aren't easily identifyable but the should be pursued...in the interest of fairness.

[Impactdad22]

Shazaam, Kazam!!  I concur with BigG that I would truly love to hear your solutions.  How do you even the playing field for everyone in the entire state of Tennessee with: coaches (experience level), players (travel v. no travel, tiny freshman v. big seniors), facilities, (size of stadium and bleachers), field conditions (artificial turf v. grass v. dirt v. potholes), schools (big v. small, public v. private v. magnet v. rural v. urban), location (East, West, and Middle Tennessee), etc...??  Not an easy puzzle to solve.  I guess I am just old fashioned.  I just appreciate the opportunity to watch my daughters play the sport they love, no matter who the opponent or where they are playing.  Maybe we'll win a High School Championship one year!  Who knows.  Heading to Memphis this weekend to try to continue the quest.

[BigG]

The current positioning of schools is based, somewhat, on enrollment at the institution.  I am not as aware of Magnet Schools or open zoned publics, so I'm not real sure what their operating advantages are unless they are in a significantly populated area.  Seriously....the larger the population in the area, then obviously your going to be able to "pull" players toward your school based on the schools reputation.  Tell me about Magnets and Open Zoned schools and show me what kind of representation they have? (any high profile schools would be great)  The inequality is the types of players that can be brought into your program that other schools can't.  Endowments at Privates allow them to funnel money into programs that enhance the lure of kids to go there,  Unless a public school just happens to have a wealthy benefactor who wants to throw his/her money at the school....this is a rare occurance in any public school.  The solution to a lot of the problems aren't easily identifyable but the should be pursued...in the interest of fairness.

Kaz,

 

What I am reading in your posts is that it is an issue of

 

1."pull" (being able to bring kids into a school from outside a zone because of reputation).  The best examples of this are not known for soccer powerhouses, but other sports.  Alcoa (A/AA), Maryville, and Oak Ridge are all "open zoned".  You have to pay a fee, and you can attend their school even if you don't live in that zone.  The only soccer school in A/AA that I can think of is CSAS.

 

2.  Endowments.  I can tell you this, public school soccer coaches around Knoxville make more money than I did when I coached at CAK.  So the endowments certainly didn't go to my salary.  Now we DO have very nice facilities but that came from a LOT of work, fund raising, and donations.  Farragut and Bearden have worked very hard on their fields, and have done a great job through the same avenues.  Not to say that we aren't blessed.  I get what you are saying.  

 

Greeneville used to struggle in soccer.  They have since built a quality club program in their community, and have come a long way in the last 5 years.  This came from a lot of hard work and community involvement.  Parents and players dedicated to putting Greeneville "on the map".  I think this can be done in any community with the right circumstances.

 

I have struggled with the arguments about the inequalities of soccer in A/AA but I don't think there is an easy fix.  What I would rather see is a building of smaller clubs and programs in the rural areas to build up TN soccer as a whole.  I know it isn't easy, but it is doable.  This is why I coach in Oak Ridge Club rather than in Knoxville.  I want to help build soccer outside of the "big city" areas.

[kazam37]

You insult my intelligence.  There are many variable that are out of TSSAA control.  Many are just exactly what you just stated.....coaching hires, facilities, location, field situation, etc. although they do have general guidelines on many of these.  (field size minimums, volunteer coaching guidelines)   The biggest variable you mentioned is players...!  Private schools in many ways can ensure which players they get because they can choose or deny enrollment to someone.  Publics don't have that option.  I would go back over everything involving classifications right now and re-examine all the hot button issues that exist right now.  Those are the primary things I would address in the short term.  The biggest thing is to be fair and somewhat flexible. 

[kazam37]

Not you BigG.....I22.  I'm sure you think I'm some villiage idiot without a clue.....but in reality I'm just a struggling middle class dad that has neither the means or a powerful voice to try to create actually BETTER competition by entertaining new ideas instead of maintaining the status qou.  Where are you right now.....probably watching CAK or KC win the next 10 championships in a row which is bound to make them happy, since their trophy case will be full of championships.  Trust me, it is pretty loaded as we speak.  BigG, I'm not wailing on you either since it is no secret you put plenty of the trophies there.  I just wish there was enough people bothered by the disparity to act on rectifing where we are right now.  If you like it....then it will probably stay that way...?

 

kaz

[BigG]

Not you BigG.....I22.  I'm sure you think I'm some villiage idiot without a clue.....but in reality I'm just a struggling middle class dad that has neither the means or a powerful voice to try to create actually BETTER competition by entertaining new ideas instead of maintaining the status qou.  Where are you right now.....probably watching CAK or KC win the next 10 championships in a row which is bound to make them happy, since their trophy case will be full of championships.  Trust me, it is pretty loaded as we speak.  BigG, I'm not wailing on you either since it is no secret you put plenty of the trophies there.  I just wish there was enough people bothered by the disparity to act on rectifing where we are right now.  If you like it....then it will probably stay that way...?

 

kaz

Kaz, 

 

I don't think you are an idiot by any means.  I get the frustration.  I didn't always coach at CAK.  I actually started at Greeneville, Morristown West, and some schools in Florida before I came here.  And our recent 

prowess" only happened in the last 10 years.  Before that, Ridgeway knocked us out every year (public school which is now in AAA).

 

I don't think anything will change, because it is soccer.  Football is the driving factor for change in the TSSAA (which is why they added the multiplier).  

 

I don't know what school you are associated with, or the city you live in.  What I would suggest is that you get the soccer team from that area to start dedicating itself to become a better program. Start a club team.  Play "year round".  Work on sponsorships for the program.  Send your coaches to licensed courses (the US soccer courses are free though I recommend the NSCAA course highly).  It would take a lot of effort but instead of lowering the bar across the board, raise the bar locally.

[kazam37]

I doubt anyone is going to start much of a grass roots project where the proverty rate is triple the employment rate.  Our schools have almost 74% on the free lunch program.  We have a thriving AYSO program and our middle school does exceptionally well in the Smokey Mountain League... then drives over to the tournament and gets lumped with teams that are considered the best in Knoxville.  We have made the finals twice....!  We got more mission trips to third world countries than ever, and meanwhile the real mission should be near-by with our neighbors.  Everyone isn't born with the same set of parameters, athletic and otherwise. 

 

You are right in one regard, it ain't going to change if no one wants it too.  So, really the whole conversation is indeed pointless.  ******

 

Those are the next few asterisks for the private schools to use in A-AA.

 

[Rabble Rouser]

I doubt anyone is going to start much of a grass roots project where the proverty rate is triple the employment rate.  Our schools have almost 74% on the free lunch program.  We have a thriving AYSO program and our middle school does exceptionally well in the Smokey Mountain League... then drives over to the tournament and gets lumped with teams that are considered the best in Knoxville.  We have made the finals twice....!  We got more mission trips to third world countries than ever, and meanwhile the real mission should be near-by with our neighbors.  Everyone isn't born with the same set of parameters, athletic and otherwise. 

 

You are right in one regard, it ain't going to change if no one wants it too.  So, really the whole conversation is indeed pointless.  ******

 

Those are the next few asterisks for the private schools to use in A-AA.

 

Here's my issue with your arguments Kazaam, and I mean this with all due respect, but it sounds like the only solution for making things "equal" and "level" for teams like the one you support to have a chance at a title is to water down the division a great deal. I understand about the money and your school's pool of players, etc., but getting the CAKs and NDs out of your division would in no way make your team better. Or, am I missing something? And, would you really be proud to win a title that way? Participation medals get shoved in the back of the drawer or left in the parking lot by the kids. They know....

[CHAMPDDS]

Peachy.....try never, Booger!  Which is hilarious right.  I never post on they girl's soccer site again.  It is ruled apparently by the Three Stooges.   Of course you can't argue it.....coming from the guy who won.....how many titles was it.....?  You got so bored with winning them, you ventured off to other things.  The topic is running up the score.....I heard that is a very good G-P team and yet, no chance to experience the State Tournament.  *State Champion*  Knox Catholic.......that is my final pick.  The only other contender is CAK.  District 4A wins again!    

 

Kazeeter

 

Waiting....

[ChattanoogaCannon]

There really is no point in arguing with someone who just wants a handout. Hard work isn't enough for these people. They'd just rather sit back and cry "woe is me. Life ain't fair. Blah, Blah." Spare me the drivel or come up with the solution. And don't you dare pretend to know where I or my family comes from because, brother, you have no idea.

[BigG]

I doubt anyone is going to start much of a grass roots project where the proverty rate is triple the employment rate.  Our schools have almost 74% on the free lunch program.  We have a thriving AYSO program and our middle school does exceptionally well in the Smokey Mountain League... then drives over to the tournament and gets lumped with teams that are considered the best in Knoxville.  We have made the finals twice....!  We got more mission trips to third world countries than ever, and meanwhile the real mission should be near-by with our neighbors.  Everyone isn't born with the same set of parameters, athletic and otherwise. 

 

You are right in one regard, it ain't going to change if no one wants it too.  So, really the whole conversation is indeed pointless.  ******

 

Those are the next few asterisks for the private schools to use in A-AA.

 

Well, so much for our discussion, I guess.