Officiating

[tradertwo]

Somehow what I posted before got taken farther than I meant it to.

 

I did not say the pay affected performance.  My point was the pay wasn't enough to keep better officials from moving on and never looking back. 

 

If every official that screwed up a call, rule, mechanic, signal, etc. got fired, there wouldn't be any games because there wouldn't be anybody left to officiate them.  And there must not be too many people lining up to do it because someone stated in this thread that they had no desire to be an official (but yet are quick to criticize).

Try and make me "that guy" if you like.I tried to put my post in perspective so that you'd understand my viewpoint, I understand that it's difficult and my only criticism's were favoritism and/or unprofessional behavior. Since my last post I witnessed an inbounds pass to a player who lept from the frontcourt, caught the ball in midair, and landed in the backcourt. One ref' called a backcourt violation, argued with fans first, then the other two officials before they overturned the call. Missing a call is OK (he should have known the rule), but you never argue with fans, nor reveal a disagreement with other officials to the fans. Want to guess how the fans from both teams treated him for the rest of the game?

[LadyMustangsCoach]

Very hard job, but still a job, which means you are paid to perform.

 

Traveling calls are out of hand. Post players are afraid to make a pivot move, or step thru move anymore. And perimeter calls when a player has NOT established a pivot foot is another common blunder.

 

Rule No 1 - If you are not sure, don't think and don't blow the whistle.

 

Games are much more enjoyable if they let the girls play. Just call the heavy contact plays and the obvious stuff. AND STOP showboating! No one paid to see a Referee.

[blankguy]

Try and make me "that guy" if you like.I tried to put my post in perspective so that you'd understand my viewpoint, I understand that it's difficult and my only criticism's were favoritism and/or unprofessional behavior. Since my last post I witnessed an inbounds pass to a player who lept from the frontcourt, caught the ball in midair, and landed in the backcourt. One ref' called a backcourt violation, argued with fans first, then the other two officials before they overturned the call. Missing a call is OK (he should have known the rule), but you never argue with fans, nor reveal a disagreement with other officials to the fans. Want to guess how the fans from both teams treated him for the rest of the game?

First off, it is a backcourt violation. The player that jumped from the front court retained the status from where he last left the floor. Therefore, when he caught the ball he was considered in front court status. The official got that play right and the two others it sounds like got it wrong. Just like if your out of bounds on a throw in, jump in the air and catch the ball then land in bounds; you're still considered out of bounds because you never established yourself in bounds.

Now, I have seen several officials and myself included be suspended this year for not enforcing rules as TSSAA wants. There is accountability in this stuff that no body sees. The biggest accountability come to post season. They want to send their best but unfortunately a lot of the better officials are already working some college games and can't work the HS tournaments. Not to say officials don't get put in games that shouldn't be there.

Onto the referee taking over the games, I think fans get to caught up in this because a lot of those same parents that yell are the parents of the kids that act a fool or say some "smart aleck" remark then the game starts to get escalated because other players and more fans feed off of it. The officials start to take over because, if they don't, then the games might get a lot worse than what you're seeing.

On the money aspect, you're just factoring one night of work making 85 dollars. Most of the time I have to leave at 4 to be there by 5 for a 6 start. Leave the gym by 9 to be home by 10. So that's 6 hours of work. We will say 5 because I know some of you will argue the travel time. that's 17 an hour in my book but I can round for you and say 20 and hour is still good money, no doubt. But I had to go to a meeting yesterday for free an hour from my house (6 meetings a year usually last 1.5-2 hours), had to go work scrimmages and play days for free. And had to go to camp for 200.00. Pay TSSAA for dues, local association for dues, NASO dues for insurance, buy the uniform (could be used a couple of seasons). So if I work 20 games that's 1700.00,  which is good don't get me wrong.   So I would say I make a little over 1000 minus gas and "pro-bono" stuff to be able to work games. 20 games is 20 nights away from my family. I know I chose this but at least you get to go to games and watch your family play and support. My family gets to hear how some knowledgeable parent had to be escorted out of the gym because he/she couldn't hold it together to just enjoy a game.

I'm not a parenting expert but I do know that there are bosses that we all work for that are not the brightest crayons in the box but we still have to make due and enjoy the ride. If as parents continue to show kids that it's ok to act the ways we do in the stands against "authority" they will struggle to succeed in life. When the coach learns to stand up and say "we don't act like that" over "well he would never do/say that, you're wrong," "it's a power trip".....

 

I get that they all are great and I understand that teams have been together all year and aren't doing as well as they thought and parents are frustrated that little Johnny isn't having a breakout year to earn that scout's attention. But I'm telling you if you not sit down and just enjoy the show the show will end a lot sooner than you think.

[LadyMustangsCoach]

Bad Fans (aka crazy Moms and Dads) are much worse than bad officials, no doubt.

 

BUT that has nothing to do with officials doing their job well. Lets keep the issues separate here.

 

I would be in favor of higher pay for officials, in return for better supervision and reviews of their performance. When teams are buying $200 team shoes and $200 team uniforms, and traveling to Florida for tournaments, surely they can afford an extra $1,000 per season to pay refs $10 more per game.

[blankguy]

Bad Fans (aka crazy Moms and Dads) are much worse than bad officials, no doubt.

 

BUT that has nothing to do with officials doing their job well. Lets keep the issues separate here.

 

I would be in favor of higher pay for officials, in return for better supervision and reviews of their performance. When teams are buying $200 team shoes and $200 team uniforms, and traveling to Florida for tournaments, surely they can afford an extra $1,000 per season to pay refs $10 more per game.

I'm all for better performance reviews but I think majority of the officials just want to get their schedules and go home. You could probably ask the supervisors and they tell you that they've told them to change, get better..... But honestly, college officials would rather work 1 game with pretty good partners and better money than two games less money and roll of the dice partners. So you could pay them more but it's still two games and roll of the dice partners.

[cannonpride]

I have noticed that the officials seem to get better as the game goes.  First half of girls usually inconsistent calls, second half they seem to be more consistent and they usually make the right calls.  The boys game they seemed relaxed and do a good job through out the entire game. I know that there are still bad calls made from time to time but they are human and most will try to make it right.  Yes there are some boneheads out there who should not be permitted to carry a whistle but they usually do not stay around long. 

[tradertwo]

First off, it is a backcourt violation. The player that jumped from the front court retained the status from where he last left the floor. Therefore, when he caught the ball he was considered in front court status. The official got that play right and the two others it sounds like got it wrong. Just like if your out of bounds on a throw in, jump in the air and catch the ball then land in bounds; you're still considered out of bounds because you never established yourself in bounds.

Now, I have seen several officials and myself included be suspended this year for not enforcing rules as TSSAA wants. There is accountability in this stuff that no body sees. The biggest accountability come to post season. They want to send their best but unfortunately a lot of the better officials are already working some college games and can't work the HS tournaments. Not to say officials don't get put in games that shouldn't be there.

Onto the referee taking over the games, I think fans get to caught up in this because a lot of those same parents that yell are the parents of the kids that act a fool or say some "smart aleck" remark then the game starts to get escalated because other players and more fans feed off of it. The officials start to take over because, if they don't, then the games might get a lot worse than what you're seeing.

On the money aspect, you're just factoring one night of work making 85 dollars. Most of the time I have to leave at 4 to be there by 5 for a 6 start. Leave the gym by 9 to be home by 10. So that's 6 hours of work. We will say 5 because I know some of you will argue the travel time. that's 17 an hour in my book but I can round for you and say 20 and hour is still good money, no doubt. But I had to go to a meeting yesterday for free an hour from my house (6 meetings a year usually last 1.5-2 hours), had to go work scrimmages and play days for free. And had to go to camp for 200.00. Pay TSSAA for dues, local association for dues, NASO dues for insurance, buy the uniform (could be used a couple of seasons). So if I work 20 games that's 1700.00,  which is good don't get me wrong.   So I would say I make a little over 1000 minus gas and "pro-bono" stuff to be able to work games. 20 games is 20 nights away from my family. I know I chose this but at least you get to go to games and watch your family play and support. My family gets to hear how some knowledgeable parent had to be escorted out of the gym because he/she couldn't hold it together to just enjoy a game.

I'm not a parenting expert but I do know that there are bosses that we all work for that are not the brightest crayons in the box but we still have to make due and enjoy the ride. If as parents continue to show kids that it's ok to act the ways we do in the stands against "authority" they will struggle to succeed in life. When the coach learns to stand up and say "we don't act like that" over "well he would never do/say that, you're wrong," "it's a power trip".....

 

I get that they all are great and I understand that teams have been together all year and aren't doing as well as they thought and parents are frustrated that little Johnny isn't having a breakout year to earn that scout's attention. But I'm telling you if you not sit down and just enjoy the show the show will end a lot sooner than you think.

I had to check before I posted, so I called a friend who is an official. I explained the call and he stated "after the jump ball call resulting in the ball being inbounded in the frontcourt, the player's position on the floor was not established until possessing the ball in the backcourt". He stated that the rule was changed three years ago regarding this call. Just to clarify...I'm not bashing officials, I'm stating the obvious...There's no place in high school athletics for bias when calling a game, and by that I mean anything from partiality to downright cheating, and indifference to the profession (not making an attempt to know the rules) shouldn't be tolerated. You acknowledge the fact that it exists in your post with the "roll of the dice partners" comment.

[jl2014]

First off, it is a backcourt violation. The player that jumped from the front court retained the status from where he last left the floor. Therefore, when he caught the ball he was considered in front court status. The official got that play right and the two others it sounds like got it wrong. Just like if your out of bounds on a throw in, jump in the air and catch the ball then land in bounds; you're still considered out of bounds because you never established yourself in bounds.

Now, I have seen several officials and myself included be suspended this year for not enforcing rules as TSSAA wants. There is accountability in this stuff that no body sees. The biggest accountability come to post season. They want to send their best but unfortunately a lot of the better officials are already working some college games and can't work the HS tournaments. Not to say officials don't get put in games that shouldn't be there.

Onto the referee taking over the games, I think fans get to caught up in this because a lot of those same parents that yell are the parents of the kids that act a fool or say some "smart aleck" remark then the game starts to get escalated because other players and more fans feed off of it. The officials start to take over because, if they don't, then the games might get a lot worse than what you're seeing.

On the money aspect, you're just factoring one night of work making 85 dollars. Most of the time I have to leave at 4 to be there by 5 for a 6 start. Leave the gym by 9 to be home by 10. So that's 6 hours of work. We will say 5 because I know some of you will argue the travel time. that's 17 an hour in my book but I can round for you and say 20 and hour is still good money, no doubt. But I had to go to a meeting yesterday for free an hour from my house (6 meetings a year usually last 1.5-2 hours), had to go work scrimmages and play days for free. And had to go to camp for 200.00. Pay TSSAA for dues, local association for dues, NASO dues for insurance, buy the uniform (could be used a couple of seasons). So if I work 20 games that's 1700.00,  which is good don't get me wrong.   So I would say I make a little over 1000 minus gas and "pro-bono" stuff to be able to work games. 20 games is 20 nights away from my family. I know I chose this but at least you get to go to games and watch your family play and support. My family gets to hear how some knowledgeable parent had to be escorted out of the gym because he/she couldn't hold it together to just enjoy a game.

I'm not a parenting expert but I do know that there are bosses that we all work for that are not the brightest crayons in the box but we still have to make due and enjoy the ride. If as parents continue to show kids that it's ok to act the ways we do in the stands against "authority" they will struggle to succeed in life. When the coach learns to stand up and say "we don't act like that" over "well he would never do/say that, you're wrong," "it's a power trip".....

 

I get that they all are great and I understand that teams have been together all year and aren't doing as well as they thought and parents are frustrated that little Johnny isn't having a breakout year to earn that scout's attention. But I'm telling you if you not sit down and just enjoy the show the show will end a lot sooner than you think.

Sorry to tell you that is not a backcourt violation. If you are an official and you are going to get on here and talk about rules at least look it up and make sure your right before you make a rule comment.

Case book page 77 Rule 9.9.1 Situation E: A1 inbounds the ball at the division line; A2 jumps from the frontcourt, controls the ball in the air, and while still in the air passes it to A3, who is in the backcourt. Ruling--Backcourt violation. COMMENT: THE THROW-IN EXCEPTION ONLY APPLIES TO THE PLAYER INITIALLY RECEIVING THE THROW-IN PASS (FIRST TOUCH). SINCE THE THROW-IN HAS ENDED, ALL BACKCOURT RULES APPLY. HAD A2 JUST LANDED IN THE BACKCOURT , THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO VIOLATION! (9-9-3)

[blankguy]

Sorry to tell you that is not a backcourt violation. If you are an official and you are going to get on here and talk about rules at least look it up and make sure your right before you make a rule comment.

Case book page 77 Rule 9.9.1 Situation E: A1 inbounds the ball at the division line; A2 jumps from the frontcourt, controls the ball in the air, and while still in the air passes it to A3, who is in the backcourt. Ruling--Backcourt violation. COMMENT: THE THROW-IN EXCEPTION ONLY APPLIES TO THE PLAYER INITIALLY RECEIVING THE THROW-IN PASS (FIRST TOUCH). SINCE THE THROW-IN HAS ENDED, ALL BACKCOURT RULES APPLY. HAD A2 JUST LANDED IN THE BACKCOURT , THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO VIOLATION! (9-9-3)

Relax, I did not read the inbounds part, sorry. That is the only time you can actually land one foot in the front court first then the other in the back and it not be a violation. Easy fellas.

Edited January 27, 2014 by blankguy

[jl2014]

Relax, I did not read the inbounds part, sorry. That is the only time you can actually land one foot in the front court first then the other in the back and it not be a violation. Easy fellas.

Your 0-2 Case Book play 9.9.1 Situation A.

Not going to type it out this time maybe you will get in rule book.

[blankguy]

Your 0-2 Case Book play 9.9.1 Situation A.

Not going to type it out this time maybe you will get in rule book

You're absolutely right and that's why I should have stayed out of it twice. Even though you can land one foot in the front followed by the second in the back court off a throw-in.

[jl2014]

You're absolutely right and that's why I should have stayed out of it twice. Even though you can land one foot in the front followed by the second in the back court off a throw-in

Can you???

9.9.1 Situation A:

A1 catches the throw-in pass with one foot on the floor in A's frontcourt and the other foot not touching the floor.  The non-pivot foot then comes down in A's backcourt. Ruling: Violation. Player and team control are established in A's frontcourt when A1 catches the throw-in pass. The violation occurs when A1 subsequently touches the backcourt with the non-pivot foot. (4-12-6; 9-9-3)

 

 

Maybe the rule book is wrong????

I will say it again read the rule book.