All Time Best Dual Team

[FargoStrut]

8 hours ago, cobrakid8 said:

But that was the actual question, which is the best ever state dual team ALL divisions, there was no breakdown in the original question. So that is why to me 96-97 has the better claim because they DID win the state duals AND they beat father Ryan to do so. I’ll try and look up tomorrow who all wrestled for each, but the one proves they were the best by defeating all teams including private schools so could lay claim to best state duals team ever all classes combined. 

Cobra, obviously I can read and I understand the stated topic. However, I dont know enough abt the private school teams, especially those before my time, to add my $0.02 to the conversation. This is why I explicitly stated 96 Overton is my top pick for public, even if they didnt win and the 97 team did. Sometimes, it's best to speak on things you know and let others comment on things you dont know as well, even if it only partially addresses the topic or question. 

 

[cobrakid8]

3 hours ago, FargoStrut said:

Cobra, obviously I can read and I understand the stated topic. However, I dont know enough abt the private school teams, especially those before my time, to add my $0.02 to the conversation. This is why I explicitly stated 96 Overton is my top pick for public, even if they didnt win and the 97 team did. Sometimes, it's best to speak on things you know and let others comment on things you dont know as well, even if it only partially addresses the topic or question. 

 

Well, I did go back and put those teams together and I would still contend the 1997 team was better than the 96. 96 team had 8 placers that year with Brewster, Drinkwine, Elzen, Moser, Radford, the Jordan brother Derrick and Eric and Charles Mctorry.  However they also had 1 weight with no qualifier for state and 3 others I think lost their first match and were out and a heavy that placed 2nd the next year. So 2 champs and 2 RU. out of those that did not place only 1 placed in future years, so out of 14 weights they had a total of 9 placers or future placers

 

1997 team had a few more state champs but with only 6 placers. Brewster, Drinkwine, Elzen, both Jordan brother again and William Hadden. They ended with 3 champs and 2 RU, they also had a qualifier at every weight with only 2 that lost 1st round and were out. So out of 14 weights and 6 placers already they had 4 future placers. 

 

So I still think top to bottom the 1997 team is the better team, I mean McTorry can only get you 6 and with future guys on the team in 1997 that were already good but not good enough to place with the likes of Brian Larimer, Ed Clay and Clyde Clemmons you have a VERY solid team with no holes to fill.  This kind of stuff I always get some enjoyment out of. Either of those teams are very solid and stacked from top to bottom, they even won the state individual team titles in both years, but only that 1997 team won the dual title and the individual and the 1996 team that lost to Father Ryan in duals also shows it not to be as strong dual wise because they won the individual 188.5 over Red Bank, Father Ryan who won the duals overall finished 4th with 148 behind Baylor also. Shows the Overton dual team for 1996 had some holes they could not fill.

 

[FargoStrut]

1 hour ago, cobrakid8 said:

Well, I did go back and put those teams together and I would still contend the 1997 team was better than the 96. 96 team had 8 placers that year with Brewster, Drinkwine, Elzen, Moser, Radford, the Jordan brother Derrick and Eric and Charles Mctorry.  However they also had 1 weight with no qualifier for state and 3 others I think lost their first match and were out and a heavy that placed 2nd the next year. So 2 champs and 2 RU. out of those that did not place only 1 placed in future years, so out of 14 weights they had a total of 9 placers or future placers

 

1997 team had a few more state champs but with only 6 placers. Brewster, Drinkwine, Elzen, both Jordan brother again and William Hadden. They ended with 3 champs and 2 RU, they also had a qualifier at every weight with only 2 that lost 1st round and were out. So out of 14 weights and 6 placers already they had 4 future placers. 

 

So I still think top to bottom the 1997 team is the better team, I mean McTorry can only get you 6 and with future guys on the team in 1997 that were already good but not good enough to place with the likes of Brian Larimer, Ed Clay and Clyde Clemmons you have a VERY solid team with no holes to fill.  This kind of stuff I always get some enjoyment out of. Either of those teams are very solid and stacked from top to bottom, they even won the state individual team titles in both years, but only that 1997 team won the dual title and the individual and the 1996 team that lost to Father Ryan in duals also shows it not to be as strong dual wise because they won the individual 188.5 over Red Bank, Father Ryan who won the duals overall finished 4th with 148 behind Baylor also. Shows the Overton dual team for 1996 had some holes they could not fill.

 

Good stuff Cobra, Thank you for doing the research. I obviously didn't have time to research it, just going off the old "memory bank". I even said my years may be a little off. However, I do REMEMBER that during those few years, the Overton teams that I saw were the best public HS teams I remember seeing in TN, even to this day. Again, thank you for doing the research and you may very well be correct that the 97 team was better than the 96 team. All I know is they were FREAKIN STACKED for a public school!!!

[cobrakid8]

18 minutes ago, FargoStrut said:

Good stuff Cobra, Thank you for doing the research. I obviously didn't have time to research it, just going off the old "memory bank". I even said my years may be a little off. However, I do REMEMBER that during those few years, the Overton teams that I saw were the best public HS teams I remember seeing in TN, even to this day. Again, thank you for doing the research and you may very well be correct that the 97 team was better than the 96 team. All I know is they were FREAKIN STACKED for a public school!!!

yeah, I graduated in 99 so from 1996-1999 I wrestled with those Overton teams, they just pumped out stud after stud and they were even taking private schools to the woodshed, as far as public schools that would have the deepest lineup and would win a mythical dual meet, that Overton would win to me with Cleveland and Bradley having a few teams that could maybe stack up and give them a run for their money. 

[RMC]

Ok......I know, I know.....it's Georgia.....but I'll take 2010 Collins Hill up against anyone.....well....except Blair Academy

Cleveland Duals that year:
Cleveland Duals (TN)
Site: Cleveland H.S. (TN) 
Team Placing:1
Hoover (Won 68 - 6)
McCallie (Won 56 - 9)
Brentwood Academy (Won 80 - 0)
Christian Brothers (Won 53 - 13)
Father Ryan (Won 62 - 6)

Toshiba Midwest Classic (now the KC Stampede)
Site: Kansas City (MO) 
Team Placing:1

State Duals
Site: Macon Coliseum 
Jonson-Savannah (Won 84 - 0)
Centennial (Won 58 - 11)
Valdosta (Won 60 - 6)
Pope (Won 38 - 9)
 

Final Four Duals (PA)
Site: Easton High School (PA) 
Long Branch (Won 27 - 25)
Blair Academy (Lost 33 - 30)
Benton (Won 54 - 25)
Easton (Won 45 - 12)

2010- Traditional State
Drew Ferguson 103 1st Place
Bazell Partridge 112 1st Place
TJ Mitchell 125 1st Place
Joel Smith 145 1st Place
Mac Bennett 189 1st Place
CJ Collins 215 1st Place
Allen Willard 140 3rd Place
Thomas Delain 285 3rd Place
Jaime Hertica 152 4th Place
Josehph Doyague 119 5th Place
Devante Brown 135 5th Place
Nick Hobert 171 5th Place

Edited February 21, 2023 by RMC

[FargoStrut]

26 minutes ago, cobrakid8 said:

yeah, I graduated in 99 so from 1996-1999 I wrestled with those Overton teams, they just pumped out stud after stud and they were even taking private schools to the woodshed, as far as public schools that would have the deepest lineup and would win a mythical dual meet, that Overton would win to me with Cleveland and Bradley having a few teams that could maybe stack up and give them a run for their money. 

IMO, if you're looking at overall individual state placers when deciding about best dual teams, teams before the public/private split would supersede teams after that split. Even further down the line would be teams with more individual place winners that came after the small/large public split. That being said, I dont know when the cutoff would be, but no way you can compare teams from the 60's to teams from the late 90's, much less today. I know there were teams that were dominate in their own era who had a few guys throughout the lineup who would compete and possibly dominate in any era. However I think with advances in diet, exercise, conditioning, strength, etc; most of the "role players" would get worked by more recent team's "role players". 

I say that to say I don't think any of the elite older teams would compete top to bottom with more recent teams and the Bradley teams of early 2000's and recent Cleveland teams (all after splits) should get a slight downgrade. Those teams were all DOMINANT against who they had to wrestle and its not a knock on any of those EXCEPTIONAL squads, just my opinion.

[cobrakid8]

9 minutes ago, FargoStrut said:

IMO, if you're looking at overall individual state placers when deciding about best dual teams, teams before the public/private split would supersede teams after that split. Even further down the line would be teams with more individual place winners that came after the small/large public split. That being said, I dont know when the cutoff would be, but no way you can compare teams from the 60's to teams from the late 90's, much less today. I know there were teams that were dominate in their own era who had a few guys throughout the lineup who would compete and possibly dominate in any era. However I think with advances in diet, exercise, conditioning, strength, etc; most of the "role players" would get worked by more recent team's "role players". 

I say that to say I don't think any of the elite older teams would compete top to bottom with more recent teams and the Bradley teams of early 2000's and recent Cleveland teams (all after splits) should get a slight downgrade. Those teams were all DOMINANT against who they had to wrestle and its not a knock on any of those EXCEPTIONAL squads, just my opinion.

I was only taking the state placers more so than state champs because of course not always are weights built the same, but to have holes in a lineup where someone didnt even qualify for state kind of has a point also. Plus to see some of those kids like on the 96 team were also on the 97 team plus added studs that were mostly better than those that graduated from the 96 team. 

 

Not sure I agree with not competing teamwise, Those early 2000's and late 90's Bradley teams were stacked, that 2002 Bradley team with 5 state champs on it and really no holes in the lineup. I mean it would be hard pressed to beat them as they had Shawn Cordell, Adam Rains, Jake West, Michael Creagan, Matt Keller, Dustin Catlett, Quinn Gibson, Breck Still, they didnt have many holes at all just not sure they were as deep as Overton, but I do think they would have been able to hang with these later years Cleveland and Bradley teams.

 

 

[FargoStrut]

19 hours ago, cobrakid8 said:

That 95-96 squad got beat by Baylor who got beat in the finals by Father Ryan. So they wouldn’t be in the conversation of best overall unless we are going will public/private split. That 96-97 team won it overall over Father Ryan after beating Soddy and Jefferson county handily

Cobra, I had a few minutes and did a little research on 96 Overton team that got beat by Baylor in semis. You are absolutely correct that Baylor beat them. However, after looking at the box scores, Overton ABSOLUTELY DID NOT come to wrestle that match. Studs got majors or minors in place of techs and pins, state placers got beat by kids that didnt place, state placers got beat by other placers winners they beat at individuals (50/50 matches) and Eric Jordan (state champ) forfeited his match. All.of that and they only got beat by 7. All Jordan had to do was win (granted Baylor kid got 3rd) and Overton would've faced Ryan who had a bye. Almost like Overton overlooked Baylor AND had some bad luck that day. Sometimes Eli Manning and David Tyree's Giants do beat Tom Brady and Randy Moss' 16-0 Patriots. Why you play the game!

[cobrakid8]

4 minutes ago, FargoStrut said:

Cobra, I had a few minutes and did a little research on 96 Overton team that got beat by Baylor in semis. You are absolutely correct that Baylor beat them. However, after looking at the box scores, Overton ABSOLUTELY DID NOT come to wrestle that match. Studs got majors or minors in place of techs and pins, state placers got beat by kids that didnt place, state placers got beat by other placers winners they beat at individuals (50/50 matches) and Eric Jordan (state champ) forfeited his match. All.of that and they only got beat by 7. All Jordan had to do was win (granted Baylor kid got 3rd) and Overton would've faced Ryan who had a bye. Almost like Overton overlooked Baylor AND had some bad luck that day. Sometimes Eli Manning and David Tyree's Giants do beat Tom Brady and Randy Moss' 16-0 Patriots. Why you play the game!

That team had some holes to fill though, that same Baylor team that beat them ended up getting beat by Father Ryan by 8 and didn't even win state themselves, so Overton ended up as the 3rd best team not even the 2nd best or champs. In the end you wrestle the matches, press clippings and the rest do not do that for you and if you do have a hole in your lineup you have to shave some points, I've done it and that's what any wrestler should do when they are wrestling someone that have a very small chance of beating.

I take state individual team titles as a joke, so much goes into that it's really a joke and I don't understand why they even give trophies out for that, heck draws make all the difference in who wins that individual tourney stuff, especially when they do not and have never seeded and the fact that back than it was actually harder to place because it was follow your man, so you better hope not to screw up and lose to someone you shouldn't have or if they didn't make the semi's you were going home. 

[FargoStrut]

1 hour ago, cobrakid8 said:

I was only taking the state placers more so than state champs because of course not always are weights built the same, but to have holes in a lineup where someone didnt even qualify for state kind of has a point also. Plus to see some of those kids like on the 96 team were also on the 97 team plus added studs that were mostly better than those that graduated from the 96 team. 

 

Not sure I agree with not competing teamwise, Those early 2000's and late 90's Bradley teams were stacked, that 2002 Bradley team with 5 state champs on it and really no holes in the lineup. I mean it would be hard pressed to beat them as they had Shawn Cordell, Adam Rains, Jake West, Michael Creagan, Matt Keller, Dustin Catlett, Quinn Gibson, Breck Still, they didnt have many holes at all just not sure they were as deep as Overton, but I do think they would have been able to hang with these later years Cleveland and Bradley teams.

 

 

2002 Bradley had 5 state champs, a runner up, a 3rd place and 4th place kid. However, that team lost to Soddy in the team duals that didnt include private schools. This is NO WAY that you have 5 state champs and 3 more top 4 kids and lose a dual against another public school team in TN unless you have MASSIVE holes in your lineup.  Obviously, that team wrecked shop at the individual state tournament. 

To my point about downgrading teams after the splits. Its obviously easier to win an individual championship now than it was 25 yrs ago (more classes = less competition). Not saying those 8 placer wouldnt have placed or the 5 champs wouldnt have won, but I'm fairly certain there were a few blue, red AND purple blooded kids that would have knocked off at least one of those 8 placers somewhere along the way.

[cobrakid8]

2 hours ago, FargoStrut said:

2002 Bradley had 5 state champs, a runner up, a 3rd place and 4th place kid. However, that team lost to Soddy in the team duals that didnt include private schools. This is NO WAY that you have 5 state champs and 3 more top 4 kids and lose a dual against another public school team in TN unless you have MASSIVE holes in your lineup.  Obviously, that team wrecked shop at the individual state tournament. 

To my point about downgrading teams after the splits. Its obviously easier to win an individual championship now than it was 25 yrs ago (more classes = less competition). Not saying those 8 placer wouldnt have placed or the 5 champs wouldnt have won, but I'm fairly certain there were a few blue, red AND purple blooded kids that would have knocked off at least one of those 8 placers somewhere along the way.

Funny thing is one of those “holes” was Bryant Blackmon and he placed 2nd the following year and we know how good his older brother was lol. 
 

The thing is back at that time (96 and 97 Overton the privates and public’s were together) the teams Cleveland or bradley have put together since never had that issue as they for most part didn’t wrestle them especially for a state title. So they had the chance to prove they were the best overall unlike those now. And yes maybe these teams later on would beat a really good team from back in the day, but I will say the wrestlers in the past 10 years haven’t proven to be as good as the past unless every other state has also passed us because we have had Leen, Simpson, Blackmon, Ward, Mctorry  and a couple of others from the 90’s and early 2000’s go to college and actually do pretty well, while we haven’t had one do that from these latest crops at all. So yes, the added diets, weights and everything else has maybe helped out wrestling as a whole, but it hasn’t done much for TN wrestling on the national stage at all. I’m really hoping some of these latest studs can go out and do what some of those prior studs did. Wished all the kids this weekend luck and those moving on after this weekend enjoy and savor it, I still miss that final day of TN state tourney!

[FargoStrut]

2 hours ago, cobrakid8 said:

Funny thing is one of those “holes” was Bryant Blackmon and he placed 2nd the following year and we know how good his older brother was lol. 
 

The thing is back at that time (96 and 97 Overton the privates and public’s were together) the teams Cleveland or bradley have put together since never had that issue as they for most part didn’t wrestle them especially for a state title. So they had the chance to prove they were the best overall unlike those now. And yes maybe these teams later on would beat a really good team from back in the day, but I will say the wrestlers in the past 10 years haven’t proven to be as good as the past unless every other state has also passed us because we have had Leen, Simpson, Blackmon, Ward, Mctorry  and a couple of others from the 90’s and early 2000’s go to college and actually do pretty well, while we haven’t had one do that from these latest crops at all. So yes, the added diets, weights and everything else has maybe helped out wrestling as a whole, but it hasn’t done much for TN wrestling on the national stage at all. I’m really hoping some of these latest studs can go out and do what some of those prior studs did. Wished all the kids this weekend luck and those moving on after this weekend enjoy and savor it, I still miss that final day of TN state tourney!

Yeah, def would NOT consider Blackmon as a "hole" in the lineup. It had to elsewhere. Not sure where they were, but when he's added to the mix, it makes the holes even more glaring for a dual. Obviously Soddy that yr was a very good team as well and were a deeper team from top to bottom, but it's almost unbelievable that a team with 5 state champs, 3 other top 4 placers and a guy that was runner-up the following year didnt win the TN public school duals championship! 

We've had a few guys after the ones mentioned do fairly well at the next level. Also  do believe that a few kids who have graduated in the past couple years and some who will graduate this year or in the next few years will have success on the next level too.