State Tournament Referees

[LargeK9]

I have been reading these posts and I am starting to wonder why some people are getting so upset over people offering criticism to the referees. It was a shame to see the Ridgeway-Elizabethton game called the way that it was. These teams were well matched in terms of talent and coaching. The referees should not determine the outcome of a game, especially at the state tournament. If you truly are fans of the game, I'm sure you have seen this before. The point of open dialog on this topic is to try to develop ideas that can prevent this from happening again.

'CaochSH' has said that coaches should have some rating of the officials. Why is this so upsetting to you 'heyitsme'? You think it makes 'Knightcourt' an elitist to want input into the officiating. Why are you so scared to be rated by coaches?(I know you said you are not a ref, but you seem to take this pretty personally.) As a coach, my credentials for rating a referee are that I read the rulebook every year and am aware of the rules as well as they are. I would never want the coaches rating to be the sole input to who gets to the state, but why can't it be given some weight? I have more respect for those referees who have come to me after a game and said,'Sorry, coach, I missed that one.' rather than the ever popular 'You worry about coaching and I'll worry about the calls.' Those are the people who want control.

I may not pay the referees out of my pocket, but it does bother me that I have little to no input as to who I am getting for 'the school's' money. All I have at the beginning of the year is a ranking sheet. This ranking sheet rarely reflects the referees that I am sent each year. I receive a printout of the refs assigned to my games based on the schedule I sent in. I have no way to avoid referees who I do not think should get paid. Before you go on about my right to scratch a ref, this only ensures that those refs will be seen in the tournament and will have an attitude about being scratched in the first place.

Are coaches paid in a similar fashion as the referees? No. But they are accountable to more people than just their own organization. I am held accountable every night by my principle, my parents, and the administrators in the central office. I do hold the members of my community to the same type of accountabilty. I wouldn't want a policeman to show up drunk to a shoot out. I want to know why you don't think referees have to answer to anyone for their mistakes? I am NOT saying that I am perfect, but I do try to improve myself and my profession. This was supposed to be a discourse on ways to make referees better.

I do understand that not all of the best teams may make it to the state. The same is true for the best referees. However, I do not 'accept' that that is the way it has to be. Heyitsme, you should open your mind and stop being such a ptz about people suggesting change especially when it is for the betterment of the GAME!

[BigOwl]

LargeK9, it seems to me that you want it like they have it in Kentucky where the coach gets his own officials to call his home games. Then you would have a say. But I bet you wouldn't want to go on the road. Do the refs know that you scratch them in your association? In the association in Memphis, they are not told who has scratched them and who hasn't. Are you also saying that the officials don't try to better themselves? That is incorrect because they attend at least 5 local meetings each year and are required to go to camp in the summer once every three years so they can work post-season games. What are you classifying as ref mistakes? Did they miss a rule or did they make a judgment call that you disagreed with. If they miss a rule then you have a beef but if it is judgment then you have no beef. The best miss calls and no one feels worse than they do but I am sure you know that already.

[LargeK9]

BigOwl, thank you for getting back to what this thread is supposed to be about: making the refs better. I do not have all of the answers. I have experienced some refs who took getting scratched personally. We have stopped doing that. However, some refs think that if they do not see you that year, you must have scratched them. That very comment was made by a referee before a district tournament game this year. I thought it was very inappropriate. I'm sure that the refs are trying to better themselves, but is one camp every 3 years enough? Also, most of the refs at those camps will get better because they take it seriously. However, in my association I see a few who only take it serious when being watched. That is the primary reason I would like to see coaches have some input. Then they would always be watched.

[BigOwl]

Did you know that basketball is the only sport where officials are required to go to camp. I think once every three years is appropiate since the camp costs about $200. The mechanics change only every two years so three is a good number. Remember as a coach that no matter how many camps or meetings a person goes to there are some officials that will never get better or who don't care. Those are the ones I would like to weed out. They are the ones that give officials a bad rep. I am sure all of the officials at the state care about what they did or they wouldn't be there in the first place. It works the same way in coaching and for players. There are some coaches out there that will never get better and the same for players. Some coaches are there just for the paycheck and some players are just there to be there. I just can't see how coaches can rate officials without a bias coming into account. There will always be calls that you don't agree with and that will always be a determining factor in how you rate an official even if it is subconsciously. I have rated football officials and have caught myself thinking about what happened in a game when I saw the name of an official on the list. It is human instinct. How would you keep it out of the ratings?

[LargeK9]

You are 100% correct BigOwl. It is only those referees that do not care that I would like to weed out. I agree that some bias would interfere with a coach's evaluation. However, I think that coaches could look at certain aspects of the game objectively if the rating sheet were worded carefully. This would take time and effort by coaches and referees to develop, but once it was, you would have an effective method to consistently observe refs and identify refs that may need closer observation by their association. The coaches ratings for one game should not be a measure, but if one ref is consistently getting bad marks by more than one coach perhaps there is something there.

[CoachSH]

LargeK9, I gave you a good mark for that long post.

 

"I have been reading these posts and I am starting to wonder why some people are getting so upset over people offering criticism to the referees. It was a shame to see the Ridgeway-Elizabethton game called the way that it was. These teams were well matched in terms of talent and coaching. The referees should not determine the outcome of a game, especially at the state tournament. If you truly are fans of the game, I'm sure you have seen this before. The point of open dialog on this topic is to try to develop ideas that can prevent this from happening again.

'CaochSH' has said that coaches should have some rating of the officials."

 

Great post and he is my input on this subject.

 

 

 

I still do not understand why it would be wrong for coaches to pick refs for tournaments. The refs have nobody to tell them that they are doing anything wrong. The advisers do not they just always tell them good job. In March Madness they rate the officials through the tourney and that is how they decide who keeps on calling thoughout the tourney. Why can't Tennessee do that. Something needs to be changed because they pick a defferent official every tourney and it has nothing to do with how good you are it just has to do with how long you have been calling and have you been to the state tourney yet.

[Edited by CoachSH on 3-31-03 12:33P]

 

[BigOwl]

CoachSH, you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. The officials are evaluated throughout the year and even at the state tournament. Have you ever heard of a guy named Gene Menees. He sits at the table and watches and evaluates each official during each game. Then the next morning the officials meet with him and he discusses what he has seen the day before. Then they pick the 12 guys to work the finals in each division and have the remaining 2 guys work the table. As far as supervisors go the guys in Memphis are just the opposite of what you claim. They are very diligent in pointing out things official did wrong and what they need to work on in future games.

Please tell me how as a coach you would evaluate officials? I would like to know since you say supervisors don't.

[jgriffin]

My dad is an official and it is absurd for you people to get on this board and knock on referees. Referees do not have an easy job, they do not get paid enough for the job they are doing, and they spend a lot of time away from their families. Many officials do not get to spend as much time with their family as they would like because they are officiating and all you people get on here and just bash them. It is not easy to take ridicule from the fans at games, and it is even more ridiculous to have to see this on a message board. You need to take in consideration that these men and women are doing this because they want to give something back to high school sports. You should be thanking these men and women because they are not getting paid what they deserve and they still are out there officiating.

 

Don't start knocking these officials unless you can get out there for a full season and take as much criticism as they do.

[CoachSH]

You would rate them by letting the players decide the game. No one came to the game to see the officials. I can live with someone making a mistake but when they make a big six point swing in two calls. The worst is when they do not know how to call a big guy. If a big guy is standing close he gets a foul but on the same thing fi he has the ball they let the team kill him. People also flop on charges with a big guy and they always get that call. Just let it be fair. In college you do not see them picking on a big guy, dont get me wrong I do not think they are doing it on purpose but they just do not understand how to call with a big guy on the court.

 

I think All High school refs are wanting to be a college ref so they need to get the chip off there shoulder and understand how the game is going and let the kids play.

 

 

It is easy to see if a official is doing the right thing or not. I watch tape for TN Tech all the time and see what refs we want or not. With the whole district and region voting you would have the best refs because all the coaches would have different ones but the ones voted on all of them would be the best. Real simple if you think about it. Then they might be a litte nice instead of allways having a chip on there shoulder.

[Edited by CoachSH on 3-31-03 2:53P]

 

[jgriffin]

CoachSH,

 

First off as I mentioned previously, my dad is a high school official. Secondly he has NO DESIRE to become a college ref. He already spends enough time away from his family. He also does not have a chip on his shoulder. He is out there officiating to give back to Tennessee high school sports. He is also a football and softball coach. He does not have to officiate, but he does because he wants to give something back. If you think you could do better than all these officials then why don't you get out there and prove it. It is ridiculous that you act like you know how all officials are and that you know them personally. These are family men and women who do not have to be out there, but they are and they are getting paid really crappy for it.

 

You do not know how hard being an official is till you can go out there for 20 years every season and have to take criticism. This is just absurd to have to see this criticism from someone sitting behind a computer on a message board.

[CoachSH]

jgriffen, You are making this personal and it is not. This is a thread talking about how bad the refs was at the state tourney. We are not calling you or you family out. That is what everybody does on this site.

 

Like I said before we are the only state that does not rate our officials for tourney time.

 

No harm just talking about what I think they should do in high school. I am just a college coach with an opinion. A lot of people agree with me though. You are lashing out at me and I did not start this thread. I know who your family is and I am not talking about you dad he works hard I am just saying somthing needs to be done. No harm done sorry I hit a sore spot with you but I did not start this thread.

[Edited by CoachSH on 3-31-03 8:42P]

 

[CoachF]

I can't believe this thread has become so personal to some people. It is a job. If you do not do a good job you will be criticized. If you don't like it ,quit. The comment that was made about an independent contractor is crap. Anyone that hires an independent contractor is not going to pay them for a poor job. I have a lot of friends that officiate. When they stink it up I tell them. When I blow it as a coach they tell me. The thing is we both know the truth. I know when I win a game and I shouldn't. I don't give the win back. Officials know when there are more deserving officials that get to go to the state. They don't say, please take my spot. They just go. The main thing here is that we need a better way to evaluate officials.

If you can't stand the heat, don't come in the kitchen!