Refs - rules

[gofish]

What are the circumstances under which a head ref can void his earlier call (as in the 171 MBA/CBHS). How much time does he have to do so, and can the secondary ref make an over ruling (as it appears he did)?

[Sommers]

What are the circumstances under which a head ref can void his earlier call (as in the 171 MBA/CBHS).  How much time does he have to do so, and can the secondary ref make an over ruling (as it appears he did)?

I could see certain persaonlities in our state intervene or even overrule more plain for the eye to see, and at the same time I can see others offer perspective & suggest, and be respected enough to change the call without others detecting their influence.

 

To my understanding, the lead or head official's final call stands,,, that's it.

 

soms

Edited February 10, 2004 by Sommers

[delaWarr]

The assistant ref does not over-rule the primary ref. The secondary ref can inform the primary ref which the primary ref can then take into account in letting his initial call stand or in changing the call. When this situation arises, what I have seen most often is that the primary official didn't see or was not in position to see a situation and the secondary ref explains to him what he saw. The single call that I have seen the assistant ref have the greatest impact on is locked hands...when the primary ref was not in a position to see the locked hands.

 

This comment is not made to specifically address the call in the previous post, but to address, in part, the roles of the two officials.

Edited February 11, 2004 by delaWarr

[Bobvark]

boundry lines and locking hands are the two biggest things I see secondary refs used for. The other big thing the secondary ref can do is keep mental track of the score, positions, cautions etc... As well as keeping wrestlers in the middle during a break.

[reftn]

Wow, I like a thread where I can contribute!

 

The role of an assistant official is just that, to assist. He is allowed complete mobility of the mat, but he is essentially another set of eyes. If you notice, his whistle is generally tucked in his shirt. He makes no gestures or hand signals and should not engage any coaches regarding any call unless the mat official has directed him to do so. If the assistant feels he has seen something the mat official did not, he can and should approach him with it. The mat official may accept or reject his thoughts/input. The mat official's decision is final on matters of judgement.

 

The assistant will watch for things the mat official cannot see, i.e. hands in the face in pinning situations, keeping the wrestlers in the center of the mat while at a table conference with a coach, be sure the scoring is correct during a flurry, correct starting positions before a restart and so on. The assistant CAN be a valuable asset to the match, he should never be a distraction.

 

I got to officiate this weekend in Clarksville and was able to work with Danny Gilbert from Chattanooga as official/assistant swapping out every other match. He was great to work with and I think made our bouts very strong from an officials standpoint. How do I know that? We called straight through, no table conferences or questions from coaches, and there were several close moments. This can also be attributed to great table workers. I would rather call it alone than have a poor assistant.

 

Enough,

 

reftn

Edited February 10, 2004 by reftn

[wrestlemom]

Question along this line.

 

You have two officials on the mat. The coach then loudly objects to a final, match winning call. The head official talks with the coach beside the mat, not at the table. Then changes his call, in favor of the coach's wrestler, and never confers with the assistant official. Is this right or wrong? I really do not know the procedure, but it would seem to me that the coach should have been told to be quite and the two officials should have talked to make the decision. This happened a few years ago, and I have always wondered what the proper procedure should have been.

 

PS My son was not involved.

[CoachDelgado]

I have always thought that two heads are better than one. Assistants are great for locked hands and out of bounds calls. Then after the CBHS - MBA situation I began to think long and hard about it. The head ref says one thing and the assistant says another. Who's right? According to the book, the head ref should prevail. Isn't that in itself a problem? They both are assigned to a high level event. In the duals it was an alternate match swap by the head and assistant for the "power" in the match which is rather arbitrary. Their "votes" on a call cancel each other out.

 

I much prefer either 1 ref or the FILA system of 3 refs. With 1 ref you would have the decision of 1 person without his assistant questioning his calls. An overrule like this past weekend (oops I meant 2 overrules in 8 second at 171 lbs) would never occur. With 3 refs, you at least have a tie breaking official when there is disagreement (2 refs to 1 ref call it 2 points, then it is 2 points for green). any thoughts?

[best_of_the_west]

He makes no gestures or hand signals and should not engage any coaches regarding any call unless the mat official has directed him to do so.

I thought most of the assistants were putting up the locking hands. I'm pretty sure that several times, both officials were signaling locking hands. Is that correct?

[WrestleSBA]

I like the idea of having three refs in there Jose but my only question is that should it really take three refs to effectively call a match? I know it is tough for one ref to see everything but there are definitely drawbacks to only having two (like the call questioning).

 

I would like to hear others thoughts on this.

 

Also do we really think the TSSAA would be willing to pay to have three refs?

[PUMMELKING]

Three refs are not always better than one. That is if they are to busy messing with paddles or to lazy to get down and anctually see a pin.

Most times they are good, with some stipulations of looking across the mat for confirmation and the just glance over and see a hand or paddle raised and do the same because they were all tied up with recording score and holding paddles.

Just a thought. not to mention if they think they are mightier than thou, which sum FILA and higher ranking USA refs tend to be.

Once again not all but SUM!!!!!!!!

[reftn]

BOTW,

 

Clarification;

 

the assistant will communicate through hand signals to the mat official certain technical violations, the most common being locking hands. On matters of judgement, for instance, he would make it known far less demonstratively.

 

In the olden days (reaches for Geritol), there were three officials calling tournament finals, one on the mat, two in chairs sitting opposite eachother. I like what we have now better than that.

[clintabbott]

Reftn

In the real old days, you officiated by yourself. The first state tourney I worked was in 1968 at Donaldson. You had two mat judges for overtime. The mat official had one vote and each of the judges had one vote in case of a tie. We then went to two officials sitting in chairs on opposite sides of the mat and the whistle blower. Luke Worsham told me when we first started using that system, that I had officiated for a long time, but I was allowing the two guys on the side to officiate my match. I thought about what he said and realized he was right. After that, I paid no atttention the the two guys, unless I saw both of them standing. The next system was the present one. I agree with Jose that two eyes are better than one and I agree with you that I would rather be by myself than have an assistant that does nothing or tries to referee the match. The only problem with a whistle tooter and an assistant is if the tooter is intimidated by the assistant. This happens sometimes when the mat official is younger and less experienced than the assistant. The tooter constantly looks at the assistant for help on close calls. My advice is to call the match and if the assistant sees something he should verbally communicate with the whistle blower, stop the match and talk about the situation quickly, make the call and go on with the match. Thanks for allowing a geritol user to express my thoughts after forty years of officiating wrestling for the TSSAA and twenty years of officiating for the NCAA. Clint Abbott