RED CARD

[stevscarb]

"Soccer should be held to a higher standard "

 

Sorry, that one won't fly! We are talking about a disciplinary situation where the School is involved. TSSAA is wide open to a law suit on this one. A school must hold all of its athletes to an equal protection standard. That means everyone must be treated the same.

 

Some TSSAA refs have an inane read of the foul language rule. I read the rule to state that the foul is "cursing" as opposed to an "expletive". Cursing, as in F___ you, directed at someone should be cautioned. A kid that messes up and utters an expletive directed at no one deserves no such thing. In addition I have seen kids carded who actually never said anything and I have seen the wrong kid on the wrong team carded. That's just ___in' wrong. :>)

[Kendren]

I may be wrong, but I understand the "soft" red card was incorporated by TSSAA to offset less experienced high school refs who have difficulty distinguishing between true cardable offenses and "teachable moments", which can usually be handled with a few well chosen comments and without a card. I do agree that many cardable offenses in soccer are completely ignored in other sports. Do players really not curse in football or basketball? It can and does get you tossed in soccer. I've never seen it result in an ejection in any other sport.

Actually, I have, twice, and I was the ref on the basketball court both times. Once a player, once a coach, player thought he was fouled, turned to the player, and said "Get off my f'n back" and I t"d him and tossed him. Coach looked me dead in the eye and said "You're the s-yest referee I've ever seen", and got tossed, for saying the two magic words... any cuss word following the word "you".

 

But still, cussing should be a card, in my opinion. Red if blatant and directed at someone, yellow for just general. I don't like that they get away with it in the Premier League in England, and I don't like it here.

[Hoya]

The two posts above provide a great example of my concern. Both posters know what they're talking about, both are reading the same rule and both are enforcing their "read" of the rule in good faith---but with extremely different outcomes. One would go straight red (and all it entails---man down, miss at least one game and a school conference) for a directed curse and one would caution for a directed curse. One would issue a yellow for a generalized curse and one would not caution at all (although I bet he'd "counsel").

 

If TSSAA is going to concern itself with disiplining cursing (and I'm not saying it shouldn't, necessarily, although I've seen a player red carded for saying a slang word describing human waste products, not directed anywhere but at the player himself for missing a wide open net) then TSSAA should demand the anti-cursing rule apply across the board to all athletic events. If it's not going to be enforced with ejection in football or basketball, it shouldn't be in soccer---especially since ejection from a high school event affects the student-athlete's disiplinary record because of the principal's conference requirement.

 

That is not to say that a coach, parents or teammates should ever tolerate a player "fouling the airwaves" with a bunch of idiotic cursing. I just think there should be equal enforcement across sports and there should also be well defined and published standards that all reasonable officials can agree upon.

[Kendren]

Well said. If there is going to be a rule, it should be a by-law that applies everywhere. The problem you have is, the coaches/school administrators vote on the rules. Referees in general like more rules, because it takes the guesswork out and defines what is what. Players/coaches/fans don't like more rules because it gives them more to remember and "takes the fun out". And then you have different refs having different interpretations of the exact same rule (as we've seen here). Humans are strange creatures.

 

But as for that players getting tossed for a slang word (such as c**p?), directed at the sky, I think that's a go over, talk to the kid, tell him to be careful, and move on. Not even a card there. We used to have team practice at saying non-cussing, yet satisfactory, expletives to say (our favorite was "paper cup"... go ahead, say it like you're cussing... or "frog chat")... got team bonding, laughs, and had the same cathartic effect on the field as real cussing.

[drsoccer]

Kendren, great post and well said!

[stevscarb]

"I don't like that they get away with it in the Premier League in England, and I don't like it here. "

 

See the problem with this? You've sanctioned a player and coach for what you think, not what the rule says. The rule doesn't say anything about what words can be said and which can't. It involves invective directed at someone. I think most refs mean well but we need some consistency across the board for all sports. Try this example:

 

A player mishandles a ball in a bad situation resulting in loss of possession and says, to himself, "You sorry piece of dog muffin!"

 

A player gets fouled and turn to the offending player for the other team and says, "You sorry piece of dog muffin!"

 

Go read the rule and tell me what the appropriate action is.

[Kendren]

Actually, in soccer, if I remeber correctly, (and I may not, so if I'm wrong, tell me) the wording in the rule is "foul and abusive language", which is wildly open to interpretation. I understand the need for consistency, and as a referee, I'm all for it. Give me STRICT guidelines, what is good, what is bad, and we'll have no problems. But we're told to "use our best judgement", and we do. Alot of people disagree with our judgement, and that's fine. But yes, better guidelines would be helpful.

[stevscarb]

"Foul and Abusive language" is pretty straight forward now that I think about it some more. It can't just be foul! It has to be foul AND abusive. This would pretty well nail the door shut on the argument that you can card a player just for uttering an expletive. In order to be abusive, language must be directed at a person. It also does not require that an obscenity be used. It is the mean spirit of the language that violates good sportsmanship.

 

As an argument, this one is over. No foul for the word, card for foul AND abusive!

 

Now if we can just get the ref's to read the law. That might be hard since we can't get TK to read the letter clarifying the hands on the back foul. It says very plainly that placing the hands on the back of another player is not a foul unless an obvious push ocurs, but the whistle gets blown time and time again.

[stevscarb]

The Law says "offensive OR insulting Or abusive language and/Or gestures." I still read that to be directed at someone and not a stand alone expletive.

[Kendren]

Okay, it was or. Fair enough, and generally, I agree with your interpretation. Howqever, there does come a line when screaming obscenities at the sky loudly and repeatedly should be dealt with. After a talking to, if it happens again, woe be on your head, in my opinion. And really, this should all be dealt with at the captain's meeting before the game. Address it if you think it's going to be a problem (either as a referee or as a player, refs almost always ask if you have any questions or comments to make, and honest to God, we LIKE you to have questions if they're on your mind, we'll explain things). So all you captains out there, if you've been wondering about an interpretation made by an official, before the game, ASK. You may not like the answer, but you'll know where the official stands, and I think the point of all this was to eliminate the uncertainty of where everybody stood.

[soccaref17]

As a ref I can say that cusing has nothing to do with soccer. I hear at least 20 bad words a game and do nothing. As a ref you have to use your cards to only deal with hard fouls or the cards lose meaning. I officate from High school to the college level and I have never carded for profanity. Also the rule book is there as a guide and thats all. A good ref stops the game as little as possable. Any player will tell you that you should just let them play. Carding for cusing or things that the Laws of the game say your should card for is stupid. Let the kids play!!! Untill you have done big games and have been there as a ref dont tell people what refs should do!

[mtnman]

Why should high school soccer players be allowed to cuss? They can't do it with any other sport. These are high school students not professionals. If it is an under your breath, frustration profanity than big deal let it ride but anything else should be penalized.

 

I am not telling any refs what to do, just offering my opinion. This is a discussion board.

Edited April 19, 2004 by mtnman