Different Region, Different Call

[flightmaster]

The problem is that our state has 2 different sports going on here, but they falll under the same umbrella, indoor and outdoor(sand) volleyball.The rules are leaning toward the sand game, yet every year, when it gets too cold to play outside, we all go inside, and face the "old school" type of ball again.Our refs only know the indoor game, and should be forced to learn the sand ball rules, because that is the future of the sport, if we don't join the rest of the world, we'll be left behind here in the hills of Tennessee.I see a problem with allowing sloppy contact on first balls over the net, but a hard driven ball should be allowed to be mulitple contacted everytime, and one handed open hand digs should not be called if the ball pops and doesn't wipe.As for setting, the ball is the determining factor, is it clean or not, ...I know this is not the case , and will never be, so it should be all or none, if you are not going to call the ball, then you should'nt be allowde to call the deep dishes or one hand pushes either.The serve is my biggest point of contention, we need a hard fast definition of are we going to allow slop or not, it's my interpertation of the rules that we should allow it...what are you coaches afraid of, getting beat by a team of hacks who catch the ball on serve recieve, well if this happens, then you need to work on some other areas with your girls.We all know a lessor team will never win against a great team because of a few mishandled balls, let the girls play ball, it's just a sport.

[TheGreatLineJudge]

I see a problem with allowing sloppy contact on first balls over the net, but a hard driven ball should be allowed to be mulitple contacted everytime

 

This is already so. Multiple contacts are legal on the first ball over, provided it's just one attempt to play the ball. Prolonged contact is never legal.

[flightmaster]

"prolonged contact is never legal", well it is in the sand game, and what amount of time is considered "prolonged"?

My girls were called on many occasions this year on the two handed wipe that rolls off the back of the fingers, this call didn't bother me, because it teaches the girls that it was a bad pass regardless of the refs call, but not every ref sees it that way.Me personally , I don't see it as "prolonged contact", I just see it as a misplayed pass that deserved to get the whistle blown for that reason.

I took several minutes at the rules meeting to go over a few digging techniques with Elaine and she assured me that ALL of them were legal on first balls over the net(including a 2 handed, not joined, open handed,palms up scoop), most of these techniques were never practiced by my team, and none of them occured in a game, but we were called on much lessor offenses ALL season.It bugs me that a deep dished pass(overhand set style) is considered illeagle due to "prolonged contact", yet a multiple contact is good?

Is it not true that the reason they allowed multiple contact in the first place was to improve the volley aspect of the game?

The rule used to be that a mulitple contact was bad due to the "prolonged contact" aspect of it.

It was said that no way can you touch the ball sloppy twice without "prolonged contact"...so why then is it now ok to "prolong contact' in the case of a multiple contact, yet a great slow hand dig is called a catch?

If you are gonna allow one form of "prolonged contact" as in the case of a multiple, other forms should also be ok too, like they are in the two man sand game, and as Elaine explaned to me"Anything on the first ball over was good", just like sand ball, "on a hard driven ball, "anything short of catching it and throwing it up is good".

Once again, the problem as I see it is we are trying to make the sport more user friendly to the novice(this is a good idea) but by allowing some forms of prolonged contact(as in a multiple) and not others, there is a big void when it come to what is good and what isn't.In the sand it has to be a hard driven ball, but because girls volleyball is so inbetween most of the time, that cannot be a defining factor, and if we were to call the cleanliness of the ball only, it would run people away from the sport due to the fact that NOBODY at the highschool level has open level hands.

The only answer is to allow slop on everything (first ball over).And when(20 years from now) H.S. girls go from hitting 50mph balls to 70 mph balls, the prolonged contact wont matter, it will look like it should.In the meantime, we can either watch them slop it up, or go back to 1958, but to allow a ref to determine what is "prolonged contact" and what isn't ,is a joke, and it says alot about the lack of open level experience(none) of our refs and coaches who think for one minute that a multiple contact is anything but a "prolonged contact" in drag.They are one in the same.My girls made some incredible digs this year, and got the whistle blown, yet if Karch was hitting it at 70mph, the dig would be totally ok.All this "ref" interpertation of "prolonged contact" does is teach them how not to be inventive, and how to not to dig a really hard driven ball, which one day, if they are good enough, they WILL see in the olympics or at the pro beach level anyway.You can't have it both ways, let them play, and the game will catch up with the open level rules(in another 20 years)...stiffle them and it will be to their detriment.Refs need to call it one way, let the slop cometh, and in time the game will catch up with the rules.

[ComPassion]

All this "ref" interpertation of "prolonged contact" does is teach them how not to be inventive, and how to not to dig a really hard driven ball, which one day, if they are good enough, they WILL see in the olympics or at the pro beach level anyway.You can't have it both ways, let them play, and the game will catch up with the open level rules(in another 20 years)...stiffle them and it will be to their detriment.Refs need to call it one way, let the slop cometh, and in time the game will catch up with the rules.

Great post Flightmaster, I really enjoyed the above quote.

I hope this State tourney stirs up some discussion about consistency across the State. And, I hope that the discussion leads to the obvious conclusion that the State needs to get in touch with national standards (not just Nashville standards) and then someone has to have the guts/respect to tell/show the older officials what those standards are ..and therefore how far we are off from them we are.

 

The Nashville officials don't even know that they are "calling technique" rather than calling actual contact duration. It is so ingrained in that area's tradition that they could read the simple rules which say nothing about illegal techniques and still go right out and call techniques illegal and be oblivious to what they just did. They need to re-read the rule as they were a first yr official and then ask themselves, "Where does it say or infer that I should blow my whistle every time a girl tries a one-hand set, hand receives a dig or serve, digs with an open hand, makes a slapping sound on a dig, recovers a ball that has fallen down from her block, hits her in an odd part of the body, tips the ball, accidentally does some technique "wrong" but it is in contact with them shorter than a "correct" skill, invents an athletic way to set a tight pass ...etc.

 

So, it's not that they call "tight", it's that so many of them have totally INVENTED their own technique standards which have NOTHING to do with the rule book or intent of the rules. Do you really think that the rules would intend that there be 28 illegal contacts called in a 3-gm match? (my true estimate on # in a Wed. match).

 

The game is meant to be played, not officiated. All of those "look at me blow my whistle, aren't I important because I can point out imperfection" officials need to be shown some video of the national standards. Why won't someone do that????? Why not do that?????

[TheGreatLineJudge]

"prolonged contact is never legal", well it is in the sand game, and what amount of time is considered "prolonged"?

Sand game is wholly different than the indoor game. There is no comparison in the two as far as ball handling goes.

My girls were called on many occasions this year on the two handed wipe that rolls off the back of the fingers, this call didn't bother me, because it teaches the girls that it was a bad pass regardless of the refs call, but not every ref sees it that way.Me personally , I don't see it as "prolonged contact", I just see it as a misplayed pass that deserved to get the whistle blown for that reason.

On first ball, I sometimes debate whether or not to call that. 99 times out of 100 I don't. I'd like to see it addressed a little more in the rule book, or better yet, the case book.

I took several minutes at the rules meeting to go over a few digging techniques with Elaine and she assured me that ALL of them were legal on first balls over the net(including a 2 handed, not joined, open handed,palms up scoop), most of these techniques were never practiced by my team, and none of them occured in a game, but we were called on much lessor offenses ALL season.It bugs me that a deep dished pass(overhand set style) is considered illeagle due to "prolonged contact", yet a multiple contact is good?

While a deep dish-style set in itself is not illegal, many times prolonged contact is involved. If the official feels the ball had "momentary pause" during the set, prolonged contact is reason to make a call. I've seen plenty of setters who use this style, but they do set the ball very quickly and without what I deemed to be prolonged contact with the ball.

 

I'll admit it can be difficult to break yourself from calling that style of set, but once you're broken of that mindset, you don't have trouble judging how long the ball was in contact with hands- not technique.

 

Multiple contacts (provided it is one attempt to play the ball) is what is said in the rulebook, so that's what we are to enforce. I believe the rationale is to account for the speed that attacks are made with these days.

Is it not true that the reason they allowed multiple contact in the first place was to improve the volley aspect of the game?

The rule used to be that a mulitple contact was bad due to the "prolonged contact" aspect of it.

It was said that no way can you touch the ball sloppy twice without "prolonged contact"...so why then is it now ok to "prolong contact' in the case of a multiple contact, yet a great slow hand dig is called a catch?

I have no knowledge of multis and prolonged ever being considered the same thing. By definition, they are not.

 

I would be inclined to disagree with "It was said that no way can you touch the ball sloppy twice without "prolonged contact""

 

In a second or third contact situation, let's suppose that a setter began with the left hand six inches higher than her right hand before she sets the ball. When she contacts the ball, her left hand comes down and her right hand goes up. The ball contacts the left first and then the right hand, resulting in an illegal double hit.

 

Is there a possibility that the setter did have prolonged contact at some point? Sure. There's a possibility of that with any touch of the ball. But a lot of the time, there is not prolonged contact involved when a double hit is called by an official.

If you are gonna allow one form of "prolonged contact" as in the case of a multiple, other forms should also be ok too, like they are in the two man sand game, and as Elaine explaned to me"Anything on the first ball over was good", just like sand ball, "on a hard driven ball, "anything short of catching it and throwing it up is good".

The statement explained to you about first ball over is correct. But just because there are similarities in sand ball and indoor ball, as far as first-ball-over contact goes, doesn't mean that everything about the two variations of the game is also similar. I can't tell you why certain ballhandling is legal in sand volleyball. I believe that the ball is heavier in sand ball, but don't hold me to that.

 

Sand volleyball and indoor ball are two different animals, with different sets of rules. I can't speak intelligently about why or why not in sand ball. I can speak with reasonable knowledge about high school ball, however.

Once again, the problem as I see it is we are trying to make the sport more user friendly to the novice(this is a good idea) but by allowing some forms of prolonged contact(as in a multiple) and not others, there is a big void when it come to what is good and what isn't.In the sand it has to be a hard driven ball, but because girls volleyball is so inbetween most of the time, that cannot be a defining factor, and if we were to call the cleanliness of the ball only, it would run people away from the sport due to the fact that NOBODY at the highschool level has open level hands.

It need not be a hard driven ball to cause multiple contact on the first ball. Sometimes it IS a hard spike that causes it. Sometimes it's skill level or experience. Many reasons. Again, multiples are not prolonged contact.

The only answer is to allow slop on everything (first ball over).And when(20 years from now) H.S. girls go from hitting 50mph balls to 70 mph balls, the prolonged contact wont matter, it will look like it should.In the meantime, we can either watch them slop it up, or go back to 1958, but to allow a ref to determine what is "prolonged contact" and what isn't ,is a joke, and it says alot about the lack of open level experience(none) of our refs and coaches who think for one minute that a multiple contact is anything but a "prolonged contact" in drag.They are one in the same.

I have strong reservations about "allow(ing) slop on everything" on first ball over. Again, doubles and prolonged are NOT the same thing. Ugly doubles? They're legal. Pretty doubles? They're legal. Catching the ball on your chest? Not legal. Having the ball roll up your arm? Not legal. Attempting to 'set' the ball and instead catching it between your hands? Not legal.

 

I would presume, from your statement of allowing everything on the first ball over, that you would be for the previously mentioned not legal actions to become legal. Coaches, fans, and a lot of players would scream bloody murder and raise cain if these things were legalized. It would be a disincentive to those who have spent a lot of time refining their ballhandling skills if these things were legal.

 

And please have some faith in your officials. If you think they're misinterpreting a rule, calmly and politely ask them between games/matches, and if you're not satisfied, have a chat with their supervisor. Being calm and polite will take you a long, long way with officials.

My girls made some incredible digs this year, and got the whistle blown, yet if Karch was hitting it at 70mph, the dig would be totally ok.All this "ref" interpertation of "prolonged contact" does is teach them how not to be inventive, and how to not to dig a really hard driven ball, which one day, if they are good enough, they WILL see in the olympics or at the pro beach level anyway.You can't have it both ways, let them play, and the game will catch up with the open level rules(in another 20 years)...stiffle them and it will be to their detriment.Refs need to call it one way, let the slop cometh, and in time the game will catch up with the rules.

I'd simply have to see the digs which you say were blown by the official. Can't really say if it was right or wrong without having a look. Again, beach volleyball and FIVB play are different from high school. They're different animals. Sure your girls can be 'inventive' with digs! All you have to worry about is if they're contacting it for too long.

 

If you have questions about what's legal or not, ask your officials' supervisor to either have a good official swing by your practice one day or host a pre-season scrimmage and request a good official. A good official should be able to point out why something is legal or not, and they should be willing and able to answer your questions on any of the rules. I believe that just allowing slop to be 'ok' would lead to a lowering of overall skill level.

 

I'm sure that others have comments. Share them!

Edited October 30, 2005 by TheGreatLineJudge

[TheGreatLineJudge]

After a bit of research, I found this in the AVP rules:

 

18.6 Ball Contact

 

A. The ball may contact any part of the body.

 

B. The ball may contact multiple parts of the body provided such contact is simultaneous.

 

C. A ball must be hit cleanly and not held, lifted, pushed,carried or thrown.

 

D. A "hard driven" ball from an attack or from a blocked ball rebounding back into the attacker's court may be contacted multiple times in succession by a player if these contacts occur during one attempt to play the ball. This counts as one team contact. A "hard driven" ball may never be carried or allowed to come to rest.

 

So the rules are pretty consistent, after all. It may be a lack of enforcement by AVP officials, but it is not a lack of rules.

[flightmaster]

To say that mulitples are not "prolonged contact" is a little to acutely focused on the fact that there may or may not be alot of separation between the first hit and the second or third hits(in one attempt). if these occur in a wipe motion, or a scoop motion,or even occur during an attempted hand set styled dig and the time between contacts is of a very tight nature, it reasons that the time the ball rested between the total of all the multiple contacts would be "prolonged", ...compared to a normal single contact....prolonged is the key word.There are normal , clean hand digs, and anything else,ANYTHING ELSE, wheather it is 5 milli seconds, 10 milli seconds or 100 milli seconds would in fact be prolonged(by definition of the word prolong).Surley you don't think that one contact takes the same amount of time as two or three?If there is a tight, really tight gap between contacts,(and usually there is when someone hand digs a 70mph ball) it looks like what I'm sayin is being called a prolonged contact.By this definition, they are one and the same.

 

 

Quoted

"Sand game is wholly different than the indoor game. There is no comparison in the two as far as ball handling goes"

 

This is where I believe we(coaches, refs,tssaa) could stand to get on the same page, to me the rule changes in the last several years, at all levels of indoor ball are leaning toward the sand game rules, and these changes lead to a better volley,better involvement from the novices, and forces the jump servers, and hitters to hit harder, and become more inventive and powerful.

 

Quoted

 

"I would presume, from your statement of allowing everything on the first ball over, that you would be for the previously mentioned not legal actions to become legal. Coaches, fans, and a lot of players would scream bloody murder and raise cain if these things were legalized. It would be a disincentive to those who have spent a lot of time refining their ballhandling skills if these things were legal."

 

I personally don't care if they were legal or not, but I know alot of people who practiced bumping from 1968 to 2001, and now all you got to do is you just catch the first ball over the net...we got over the fact that things changed, so I'm sure anyone else would too , bottom line is we need hard fast definitions across the board,and across the state.

 

quote

"And please have some faith in your officials. If you think they're misinterpreting a rule, calmly and politely ask them between games/matches, and if you're not satisfied, have a chat with their supervisor. Being calm and polite will take you a long, long way with officials."

 

 

We played a tourney in Macon Co. and lost to Beech in the simis due to one reason, I did calmy and poliely ask the ref between games( after I called a time out, and basically told my girls when I go talk to the ref , because yall are crying, be prepaired to pack it in, cause it will be our death knell) and he simply started calling both teams for hand violations.We had 15 calls in less than two games of prolonged contact, we never had a chance, it was a disgrace.I'v got faith, faith that if we did a little legal or not at the next rules meeting, there would be problems.

 

Thanks to all for the input, this will be a good thing to resolve before the 2006 season.

[flightmaster]

I just noticed this little quote from the GLJ

qoute

"If you have questions about what's legal or not, ask your officials' supervisor to either have a good official swing by your practice one day or host a pre-season scrimmage and request a good official. A good official should be able to point out why something is legal or not"

 

 

 

A good official?...what percentage of officials are not good?

Or do you mean that only the good ones know the rules, the rest just 'make it up' as they go?Or are you implying the opposite, the good ones make it up as they go, and the rest just look the other way...I'm confused about there being good refs and ....the others.....

Should'nt anyone ref-ing TSSAA games be able to tell me weather a hand dig is legal or not, without any pause?...not just the"good ones"?

I believe the only difference between a "good official" and the rest are the "good ones" are more convincing in their defense of judgemental calls, the rest KNOW there is a grey area, but aren't willing to step out there on the slippery ice.Which makes me wonder which ones are good and which one are not...I mean, is it better to have a ref that thinks he knows how to interpret the iffy calls,and changing a games outcome , or one that lets the girls play ball...letting the better team take their victory, not a grey-area-rule mandated win for the refs ego.

Edited November 2, 2005 by flightmaster

[TheGreatLineJudge]

Good official = experienced, knowledgable of rules, and can explain, at length and in depth, what a rule is and how it is to be applied in a game situation

[flightmaster]

 

Should'nt anyone ref-ing TSSAA games be able to tell me weather a hand dig is legal or not, without any pause?...not just the"good ones"?

 

 

Well?

 

and thanks for the definition Great Line Judge, so let me get this right , there is The Great One .....the good ones , and then there are just the rest ...

[TheGreatLineJudge]

Well?

 

and thanks for the definition Great Line Judge, so let me get this right , there is The Great One .....the good ones , and then there are just the rest ...

 

If you're here to make a mockery of attempts to explain the rules and debate their finer points, and just rant endlessly about officials in general, don't bother posting further.

 

The truly 'good' officials are those who are capable of handling the high profile, highly critical matches. These officials would work tournaments such as those held at Father Ryan and Brentwood. The 'good' officials mentioned are those who can/do officiate matches of the highest level in the mid-state.

Edited November 2, 2005 by TheGreatLineJudge

[oldsetter]

 

1. "A good official?...what percentage of officials are not good?

 

2. Or do you mean that only the good ones know the rules, the rest just 'make it up' as they go?Or are you implying the opposite, the good ones make it up as they go, and the rest just look the other way...I'm confused about there being good refs and ....the others.....

 

3. Should'nt anyone ref-ing TSSAA games be able to tell me weather a hand dig is legal or not, without any pause?...not just the"good ones"?

 

4. I believe the only difference between a "good official" and the rest are the "good ones" are more convincing in their defense of judgemental calls, the rest KNOW there is a grey area, but aren't willing to step out there on the slippery ice.

 

5. Which makes me wonder which ones are good and which one are not...I mean, is it better to have a ref that thinks he knows how to interpret the iffy calls,and changing a games outcome , or one that lets the girls play ball...letting the better team take their victory,

 

1. Some at all levels......

2. Flame on!

3. You only need to pass an open book test to be a TSSAA official.

4. More flaming! There is not a grey area in the rules. Perhaps in judgement?

5. "let the girls play?" The better team is the one not making the BHE's. Ball handling/control 'is' the game of volleyball. Let's play basketball and let one team double dribble/walk/charge/carry the ball............because it is just a judgement call. The better team will not win. If you have ball skills and the other team does not, there is nothing you can do to make up for an official that will not make the calls.

 

 

My flame: There is not a tight or loose way to call. Once you are out of middle school, if you can not handle the ball, you should not win. What do you do at practice? Work on chants? Ace, ace, in your face! :clap, clap, stomp, stomp:

The fundamentals will set you free!

 

Tag, your it.

Edited November 3, 2005 by oldsetter