Different Region, Different Call

[ComPassion]

 

4. More flaming! There is not a grey area in the rules. Perhaps in judgement?

5. "let the girls play?" The better team is the one not making the BHE's. Ball handling/control 'is' the game of volleyball. Let's play basketball and let one team double dribble/walk/charge/carry the ball............because it is just a judgement call. The better team will not win. If you have ball skills and the other team does not, there is nothing you can do to make up for an official that will not make the calls.

 

My flame: There is not a tight or loose way to call. Once you are out of middle school, if you can not handle the ball, you should not win. What do you do at practice? Work on chants? Ace, ace, in your face! :clap, clap, stomp, stomp:

The fundamentals will set you free!

Oldsetter,

You're a wise old setter I know. The part you said about "no grey area" and "if you can not handle the ball" have me reply though. It does appear that a high % of TN officials have decided that "there is perfection and then there is my whistle". If it is not perfect then, let's stop playing VB. This is also so grossly mis-applied to skills! So many Nash. officials have taken on the role of skills enforcer and think it is their job to stop play when a girl ATTEMPTS a skill that their PE coach in the 60's didn't like. They call technique illegal ..regardless of the duration of contact.

 

So, I know you are wise, but let's totally acknowledge that the rules say NOTHING about enforcing ball control or technique. Things are VERY grey with ball handling and it is up to us officials to

1. have a feel for the NATIONAL standards (which are very diff from TN standards)

2. perceive this match's skill levels

3. do the best we can to take 1 and 2 into account not letting one tm gain some unfair advantage

4. But mostly, let the kids play volleyball!

 

The game is meant to be played, not critically micro-judged by officials.

with respect to an oldsetter

[flightmaster]

If you're here to make a mockery of attempts to explain the rules and debate their finer points, and just rant endlessly about officials in general, don't bother posting further.

 

 

ok, fine, this will be my last post EVER, but I find it funny how everybody else can get their 2 cents in , but don't give the "great one any greif"after all, you are GOD here...

 

 

QUOTE

From OLDSETTER

"

Let's play basketball and let one team double dribble"-------- -------------------EVER HEARD OF MICHAEL JORDAN

"/walk/charge/"-----------------EVER HEARD OF SHAQ

"carry the ball"............THAT WOULD BE JORDAN AGAIN

 

 

"because it is just a judgement call. The better team will not win. If you have ball skills and the other team does not, there is nothing you can do to make up for an official that will not make the calls."

 

IT'S NOT THE LACK OF CALLS BEING MADE, IT'S THE FACT THAT CALLS ARE BEING MADE THAT ARE SIMPLY A POOR UNDERSTANDING OF THE INTENTION BEHIND THE NEW RULE CHANGES, WHICH WOULD BE LESS REF, MORE PLAYER ORIENTED

 

AGAIN FROM OLDSETTER

QUOTE

" What do you do at practice? Work on chants? Ace, ace, in your face! :clap, clap, stomp, stomp:"

 

What a trip.I coach at a small country school.We don't have it in our budgets to bring in NCAA coaches of the year every week to teach our litte christian girls how to play ball(because we never excelled at the sport ourselves),

don't have the ball setting machines, the weekend get away clinics, or the free private eductaion to offer kids in the 5th grade that are tall and might be able to help our egos out 6 years down the road when they are seniors..nor the filthy rich parents to take care of the rest.

I offer my girls my 32 years of playing experience, and I try to instill the same tenacious will to win and skill insight that makes me an open level player with a 32" vertical and a 60mph jump serve, still today, at the ripe ole age of 40.

What amazes me most is how most of you on this site, have never, will never, and can only dream of winning at the open level,much less in a beach pick up game at the santa monica peir.... yet you ridicule me for tossing out my 2 cents.

.......good luck to you all,-------- FLIGHTMASTER----- OVER AND OUT

[DaddyJuice]

santa monica? is that just west of nashville? how did they do in pool play?

 

well, my 7½" vertical and 18 mph underhand serve can baffle the best (if it clears the net)... sand will slow it down to about 15 mph though

 

GREAT delete me if you must... i took MY meds and wont be upset, ok?

[oldsklvb]

ok, fine, this will be my last post EVER, but I find it funny how everybody else can get their 2 cents in , but don't give the "great one any greif"after all, you are GOD here...

 

IT'S NOT THE LACK OF CALLS BEING MADE, IT'S THE FACT THAT CALLS ARE BEING MADE THAT ARE SIMPLY A POOR UNDERSTANDING OF THE INTENTION BEHIND THE NEW RULE CHANGES, WHICH WOULD BE LESS REF, MORE PLAYER ORIENTED

 

What a trip.I coach at a small country school.We don't have it in our budgets to bring in NCAA coaches of the year every week to teach our litte christian girls how to play ball(because we never excelled at the sport ourselves),

don't have the ball setting machines, the weekend get away clinics, or the free private eductaion to offer kids in the 5th grade that are tall and might be able to help our egos out 6 years down the road when they are seniors..nor the filthy rich parents to take care of the rest.

I offer my girls my 32 years of playing experience, and I try to instill the same tenacious will to win and skill insight that makes me an open level player with a 32" vertical and a 60mph jump serve, still today, at the ripe ole age of 40.

What amazes me most is how most of you on this site, have never, will never, and can only dream of winning at the open level,much less in a beach pick up game at the santa monica peir.... yet you ridicule me for tossing out my 2 cents.

.......good luck to you all,-------- FLIGHTMASTER----- OVER AND OUT

 

Have to agree with flight on this one, he/she speaks the truth with regards to officials here in Tn. GLJ, I think your reply was out of line but that's my opinion. In the business world you learn to read an email and not reply immediately if you disagree and reply in haste or anger. Mull over it for a bit and then reply.

 

As for flights comments about most people that post on this board...knowing a lot of them AND seeing what they look like...he/she is right on. I can't even WALK on the beach anymore without getting winded much less try to play VB on the beach.

 

I hope it's not your last post flight...you made some good points!

[PHargis]

Have to agree with flight on this one, he/she speaks the truth with regards to officials here in Tn. GLJ, I think your reply was out of line but that's my opinion. In the business world you learn to read an email and not reply immediately if you disagree and reply in haste or anger. Mull over it for a bit and then reply.

 

As for flights comments about most people that post on this board...knowing a lot of them AND seeing what they look like...he/she is right on. I can't even WALK on the beach anymore without getting winded much less try to play VB on the beach.

 

I hope it's not your last post flight...you made some good points!

GLJ, I think you were out of line with flight also. I believe your point may come from the fact you are an official and you call it the way you may have approached flight, black and white with no in between. I have seen matches with Father Ryan this year and the Lady Official which officiated was as consistant as I could have ever seen. Ryan and the team they played, played at a very high level. The team Ryan played adjusted the first game and the the match went 5. I would not doubt that teams throughout the state would not have been able to accept the officiating for they were not used to it. They are used to the CP concept which to me is how officials in other sports call games, not that it is right. Its probably not called if it does not affect the outcome of the game but if the game is close it can be and will be called. It may bring out the point that in a lot of areas, VB officiating may not be consistant because in small schools and in rural areas, they are not interested in the game being determined by officiating, they want the players to do it and will scale officiating to make the game interesting.

 

All of these discussions being interesting, these questions come to mind.

1) Who is the governing body in TSSAA for officiating? Are you involved? Is each district or region involved in policing or instructing what will be called and what not will be called? If there are disagreements and misunderstandings among this group who appear to be extremely knowledgable, what do the coaches of small and large schools think about all of this discussion? They just want for someone to know the rules and depending on the skill levels, let the players play without much interruption.

2) There was a lot of discussion at state about officiating. A lot of it was in A/AA and not in AAA where a lot of the teams had come in to Brentwood and in essence got a dry run on the officiating styles. That was an advantage to the larger schools for they had been prepared. But what they were not prepared for was that a number of those officials had not been to Brentwood so AAA was not totally consistant.

3) This is going on and on and its like a dog chasing its tale. Everyone is talking about it and it will be like the posts started on this thread earlier in the season, no one can follow up on it. Everyone know the problem, the discussion makes some angry, some want to show their knowledge of their game but 90% of those involved are left out.

4) At the stage that is game is now, is the game in Tennessee ready for the "fine points". Division II and AAA may be. Who is going to coordinate the officiating in those areas? Some In A/AA are and some are not? How is that going to be handled? Volleyball seems to be exploding with players. Probably nothing will discourage them any more than a coach not knowing the rules and an official taking over a game and not letting the players play. That is not fair to the coaches or players. It will destroy the game. The Nashville/Brentwood area and and Chattanooga area do not seem to be like a lot of the rest of the state. Certainly area's around which there are clubs are much better. Education will help a lot of things, attendance(most schools need the money), frustration, more players and teams being able to compete on a higher level.

 

GLJ, since you are leading this discussion, take your officials shirt off, don't look at this as perfection, understand you are in a very good area but every body is not as fortunate, with the teams in your area having a distinct advantage when they play some one with their iknowledge of the rules, how can those officials throughout the state be instructed better to officiate more consistantly? Whose job is it to get it done?

[ComPassion]

Super Q's and statements Phargis. I think you are at the heart of the matter and the answers to your Q's (were those your questions?) are the ones that need addressing. Let's not put it all on Judge though. Right?

 

Thoughts:

-Consistency to national standards

-Tn is ALL across the board- way to loose and way too technique oriented.

-I don't rec. we call it loose, I just rec we quit calling technique, that's the stifler.

-Nash calls technique (which most of you call "tight") not because the ball is better, they do it because that's what they always have done. (many Nashville call technique, not all of them of course, there are some excellent officials in that area.)

-Chatt. has some pretty good ball too and does not call technique/tight anything like Nash. Officials in Chatt fill both ends and the middle of the whole spectrum.

-Knox in the past has had both ends, not too sure lately.

-Some less developed areas actually call technique/tighter than more skilled areas! For officials it is much easier to call everything than to use judgement. And, some of those officials just haven't seen how common some of the new skills are, so they call it.

-And, of course some of the outlying areas let anything go.

-That's why Phargis' Q's are good.

 

Attention to, and striving for, national standards cures all. It's OK to look outside of our state to see how VB is called. As long as TN fusses over TN standards we will keep Hatfield and McCoying ourselves in a loop of frustration.

[PHargis]

Super Q's and statements Phargis. I think you are at the heart of the matter and the answers to your Q's (were those your questions?) are the ones that need addressing. Let's not put it all on Judge though. Right?

 

Thoughts:

-Consistency to national standards

-Tn is ALL across the board- way to loose and way too technique oriented.

-I don't rec. we call it loose, I just rec we quit calling technique, that's the stifler.

-Nash calls technique (which most of you call "tight") not because the ball is better, they do it because that's what they always have done. (many Nashville call technique, not all of them of course, there are some excellent officials in that area.)

-Chatt. has some pretty good ball too and does not call technique/tight anything like Nash. Officials in Chatt fill both ends and the middle of the whole spectrum.

-Knox in the past has had both ends, not too sure lately.

-Some less developed areas actually call technique/tighter than more skilled areas! For officials it is much easier to call everything than to use judgement. And, some of those officials just haven't seen how common some of the new skills are, so they call it.

-And, of course some of the outlying areas let anything go.

-That's why Phargis' Q's are good.

 

Attention to, and striving for, national standards cures all. It's OK to look outside of our state to see how VB is called. As long as TN fusses over TN standards we will keep Hatfield and McCoying ourselves in a loop of frustration.

thats a very good answer. Who with the TSSAA Officials group is in charge of the officials to get this taken care of or to agreee what you say is right? Since the TSSAA is made up of Schools and Principals who agree to join the TSSAA, do each of the schools have to agree? GLJ is very technical and very good. Nothing wrong with calling tight. If an official is able to give a yellow or red, the safe thing is to call it tight or is it.

Basketball has a set of rules. In extremely important games, the skills of the players and the game is more important than the officials and you don't even know that the officials are there. Maybe volleyball has not evolved enough and the skills have not been accepted enough that the game has to be controlled by an official. I know it can be done because in my previous post concerning Ryan and another team that went 5 games and was won by Ryan, it was called tight but you did not know the official was there. She understood the skills of two fine teams and got out of their way and the best team won that day. My opinion that is the goal. In a lot of the matches at state, thats not what I saw. if I were the TSSAA, I would see what I could do about correcting this situation, if I knew how. Said too much, enjoy the game played by student/ athletes, understand what is at stake by those who play and coach, think it could be handled better with just a little better preparation off season and preseason.

signing off.

[oldsetter]

Oldsetter,

You're a wise old setter I know. ....... They call technique illegal ..regardless of the duration of contact.

 

So, I know you are wise, but let's totally acknowledge that the rules say NOTHING about enforcing ball control or technique. Things are VERY grey with ball handling and it is up to us officials to

1. have a feel for the NATIONAL standards (which are very diff from TN standards)

2. perceive this match's skill levels

3. do the best we can to take 1 and 2 into account not letting one tm gain some unfair advantage

4. But mostly, let the kids play volleyball!

 

The game is meant to be played, not critically micro-judged by officials.

with respect to an oldsetter

 

 

Wise? Are you stroking me? We may not be disagreeing. Obviously some of these posters are talking about a particular game or referees that I may or probably have not seen. I have not seen a lot of Tennessee ball. What I have seen I would say is all over the scale (play and officiating).

 

1. What if I did have a feel for the national standard and TN was on the "lightly called" section of the scale? Would you support getting officals to call tighter to meet the national standard?

 

2. Yes, in the black and white rule book there is mention that you should officiate to the level of the better team - oh, so the offical has to pick the best team - uh who would be the most likely winner based on ball handling skills?

 

3. So if the other team is lifting and doubling and using 'new' techniques - what ever that is - and my team is not, it is o.k. that I get beat. Otherwise they would not get to play. (I am being absurd, I am sure you did not mean that - I am just trying to make a point.) (I am still bitter from being beat by a weaker team because the offical would not call thier lifts and doubles and over the net violation.)

 

4. Yes, I agree. Let them play volleyball, not nukem, or picknic ball, or gorilla ball, and do not make up calls or call things illegal just because it did not look perfect. Just prolong contact, doubles.............yata, yata, yata.....

[oldsetter]

Super Q's and statements Phargis. I think you are at the heart of the matter and the answers to your Q's (were those your questions?) are the ones that need addressing. Let's not put it all on Judge though. Right?

 

Thoughts:

-Consistency to national standards

-Tn is ALL across the board- way to loose and way too technique oriented.

-I don't rec. we call it loose, I just rec we quit calling technique, that's the stifler.

-

 

 

What makes you say these officals are calling on technique. They are only supposed to be calling on what they see about the contact. I agree. Only on what you see.

[oldsetter]

From OLDSETTER

"

Let's play basketball and let one team double dribble"-------- -------------------EVER HEARD OF MICHAEL JORDAN

"/walk/charge/"-----------------EVER HEARD OF SHAQ

"carry the ball"............THAT WOULD BE JORDAN AGAIN

IT'S NOT THE LACK OF CALLS BEING MADE, IT'S THE FACT THAT CALLS ARE BEING MADE THAT ARE SIMPLY A POOR UNDERSTANDING OF THE INTENTION BEHIND THE NEW RULE CHANGES, WHICH WOULD BE LESS REF, MORE PLAYER ORIENTED

 

What a trip.I offer my girls my 32 years of playing experience, and I try to instill the same tenacious will to win and skill insight that makes me an open level player with a 32" vertical and a 60mph jump serve, still today, at the ripe ole age of 40.

What amazes me most is how most of you on this site, have never, will never, and can only dream of winning at the open level,much less in a beach pick up game at the santa monica peir.... yet you ridicule me for tossing out my 2 cents.

.......good luck to you all,-------- FLIGHTMASTER----- OVER AND OUT

 

That is my point MJ did not get called for walks because pro"sports" is an entertainment industry. What are these new rules that everyone has been talking about? I have only been reading rules (FIVB, USAV, NFHS) for 15 years so maybe I have missed the hidden intent. Love to see your 32" and 60mph. By the way, the best beach spike this year was, I believe 43 mph in Chicago. I did not make the finals this year so I had to watch on TV.

[ComPassion]

Old Setter,

1. What if I did have a feel for the national standard and TN was on the "lightly called" section of the scale? Would you support getting officals to call tighter to meet the national standard?

Yes. You do have a good feel, that's why I like talking to you. You are right, I guess overall we are loose ..it's just that more of the influential officials are technique enforcers.

 

2. Yes, in the black and white rule book there is mention that you should officiate to the level of the better team - oh, so the offical has to pick the best team - uh who would be the most likely winner based on ball handling skills?

The official does call to the skill level of the higher team ...based on actual contact with the ball handling skills ..not based on the particular technique of those ball handling skills. That's what messes it up. There are many matches now where the "more skilled" team is using techniques that the "lesser skilled" team doesn't use ..and the "more skilled" tm is punished by some officials who have declared that players only get to use 30 year old techniques.

 

The USAV clinics will be power point this yr ..hopefully the advantages outweigh the disagvantages.

 

Have a good one.

[flightmaster]

That is my point MJ did not get called for walks because pro"sports" is an entertainment industry. What are these new rules that everyone has been talking about? I have only been reading rules (FIVB, USAV, NFHS) for 15 years so maybe I have missed the hidden intent. Love to see your 32" and 60mph. By the way, the best beach spike this year was, I believe 43 mph in Chicago. I did not make the finals this year so I had to watch on TV.

 

 

way to reel me back in oldsetter, basketball and the other pro sports have ALWAYS been an entertainment business, this does not mean you can simply make up your own rules(unless it's wrestling, or hockey before their new rule changes).In the case of MJ, and Shaq, these players have elevated the game beyond the "old school rules", forcing the NBA to make changes( the carrying/skip that jordan coined is now legal, along with the hand contact from an offensive push away, and the extended paint zone for shaq as well as the allowence of the offensive rebound and charge that shaq uses....all legal now).As the players become more creative and more athletic, the game should evolve, but this won't happen if the game doesn't evolve, it's a catch 22.How many championship titles would MJ have if he was called for a carry like my dad would have been in 1948...not seven, thats for sure.Or shaq , all you would have to do is put spud webb underneath shaqs feet, and when shaq goes up for an offensive rebound it would be an automatic foul.No championships for shaq either...but that wasn't the case, nor will it be for the future stars, like kobe ect...

The game must evolve, so must the players.

 

Rule changes in volleyball such as the usage of the libero offer amazing possibilites

in jumping the game forward light years ahead of where it was 5 years ago.Coaches have amoung many options, to either use her as the key serve reciever and digger, or as I did this year, we played a 5 man defense, and she rarely touched the ball, but was in swing mode the entire game picking up any mis cues, following the ball all night long, from the back line to underneath the block.My libero was 5 seconds faster than any girl on the team when we did a line to line sprint and touch drill...nothing hits the ground without her touching a peice of the ball, sure it wasn't perfect, but the possibilities are endless.Overhand serve reception from a setting styled pass is another rule change that will , if allowed, vault the game forward light years, but poor involvement from the officials just stiffles all that is meant to happen...once again, let them play by the rules in the book, not by your personal judgement of what technique looks(or sounds)like.

 

As for my game, I'm only 6'0"' tall, had a measured vertical of 36" in'96, but I still have no problem slamming a volleyball in a basketball goal flat footed, so maybe it's closer to 30" now.As for hitting,I won a hard hitting contest here in the early 90's with a 72 mph ball that knocked the cop down at the back line holding the radar gun at an Olive Garden sponsored contest in the field of West End Jr. high in front of 75 people, ate the free meal, and took my partner to the free hotel room at the double tree downtown... Roman Reese(national chairman for the tourney committee of the USVBA) was there, he was the one who suggested I enter the contest, but that was before I became a certified personal trainer, so I took off 10 mph(down to around 60mph) because I'v added a little too much muscle,and I don't quite have the testosterone I did in my 30's.But for your info, you are wayyyyyyy off from the pro beach mph...they are serving in the 70's now!