BA vs. TSSAA Ruling In

[VolunteerGeneral]

Let me say this and this is just my opinion. If a kid is in the 8th grade and has signed a contract to attend BA in the fall, anyone who wants to complain about them sending a correspondence letter is a pathetic loser and whiner. I mean the kid has signed a contract. It`s very childish and immature to try and say BA broke a rule.

[BDURHAM]

But lets allow schools to go out and seek the best. Competition makes everyone better.

 

 

This type of recruiting would not make "everyone" better. Do we want coaches, administrators, alumns, boosters, companies, etc. to knock on people's homes and recruit a kid for athletic purposes?

 

The recruiting process has corrupted college athletics. Is this what we want high school coaches to do? I thought we wanted them to coach. Why stop at high school? Get the middle school coaches in on the action. Then we can start putting 5th graders up to the highest bidder. Forget education, athletics is the ticket, right?

 

If some coaches recruit, and others don't recruit, then those who do recruit should play against those who do recruit.

 

Recruiting would make educational athletics on the secondary level worse. Kids would lose perspective, parents would lose perspective, and coaches would lose perspective.

 

Our sensibilities are throw out of balance over this silly lawsuit. Trying to justify recruiting is an admission that high school athletics are not secondary to academics. It is the wrong message, and the value of athletics is distorted at a formative period of education.

 

No, it is not good for everyone.

Edited March 20, 2006 by StanTrott

[BDURHAM]

It is irresponsible to defend something when

you don't know the facts. Not all of the 8th

graders had signed a contract to attend BA.

 

The letter from a successful coach inviting you

to spring practice has a lot of influence.

 

Let me say this and this is just my opinion. If a kid is in the 8th grade and has signed a contract to attend BA in the fall, anyone who wants to complain about them sending a correspondence letter is a pathetic loser and whiner. I mean the kid has signed a contract. It`s very childish and immature to try and say BA broke a rule.

[commander1]

Last comment as I stated earlier

 

The privates want their all star travel teams to be able to play in the local little league instead of forming their own travel league.

Now that has to be the dumbest quote on a thread FULL of dumb statemants. Let's look back at the last 2 state sports championships ( not including D II ). Football where are the " travel teams " ? Girls and boys basketball where are they ? If alleged recruiting is making such a difference why don't we see that in who is winning ? My son went to public scools for 11 years he was not recruited WE decided to spend the last year at a private school. He plays 2 sports and I can tell you every sport our school is involved in is competitive. Open your eyes and look around you if all the things people say were actually going on no one could win a state championship but private schools... and that's NOT happening !!

[tnsddeveloper]

This type of recruiting would not make "everyone" better. Do we want coaches, administrators, alumns, boosters, companies, etc. to knock on people's homes and recruit a kid for athletic purposes?

 

The recruiting process has corrupted college athletics. Is this what we want high school coaches to do? I thought we wanted them to coach. Why stop at high school? Get the middle school coaches in on the action. Then we can start putting 5th graders up to the highest bidder. Forget education, athletics is the ticket, right?

 

If some coaches recruit, and others don't recruit, then those who do recruit should play against those who do recruit.

 

Recruiting would make educational athletics on the secondary level worse. Kids would lose perspective, parents would lose perspective, and coaches would lose perspective.

 

Our sensibilities are throw out of balance over this silly lawsuit. Trying to justify recruiting is an admission that high school athletics are not secondary to academics. It is the wrong message, and the value of athletics is distorted at a formative period of education.

 

No, it is not good for everyone.

Is there something wrong with college academics and athletics? Or is this your opinion?

 

How do you know what affect anything will have on the state of high school athletics? Is this type of thing going on in other places of the country for you to base your claims or are you just arbitrarily deciding that it will be affected just as you say?

[tnsddeveloper]

Now that has to be the dumbest quote on a thread FULL of dumb statemants. Let's look back at the last 2 state sports championships ( not including D II ). Football where are the " travel teams " ?

 

Oh, oh ... choose me ... choose me! (Hand waving in the air!)

 

Let's see ... travel schools ...

 

Football

Alcoa - travel school (open zoned)

Maryville - travel school (open zoned)

 

Boys Basketball

Liberty Tech - travel school (magnet)

Hamilton - the Memphis 2 step

 

And to go further ... there are several other magnets and open-zoners that made it to the state quarterfinals and semifinals.

 

But we won't ever here about "undue influence" going on at those places.

Edited March 20, 2006 by tnsddeveloper

[jek]

You're wrong about the letters, and did Barfield

actually argue that the letters did not violate the

rules? I don't think so.

 

Not all, if any of the 8th grade students had sent money

to attend BA. By definition, I don't think they were

enrolled, so why would Barfield have argued that they

had enrolled?

 

The problem facing BA was that the students were not

at a school on campus. The letter was an inappropriate form

of contact. Public school coaches cannot send those type

of letters to 8th graders from a middle school that feeds

into the high school. I believe it is a different story for

schools that have middle schools physically connected to

the high school -- usually small 1A schools.

From the TSSAA Handbook

This will be a problem for many states, not just Tennessee.

And the issue is not about free speech, but about undue

influence. Had all of those 8th graders fully committed to

BA? I think not.

An affidavit is the form of entering evidence. If someone

swears an oath as to its veracity, it is a valid form of

evidence. I doubt anyone has a videotape or recording

of an event in which free tuition was offered and accepted.

In a court of law, you have to deal with evidence. And

there are people in Tennessee who have accepted free

tuition for athletic purposes to attend private secondary

schools.

 

The lawsuit would be an entirely different animal if this

type of evidence had been at the heart of the lawsuit and

rules violation. But as stated earlier, a parent would have

no apparent motive to come forward with this type of

testimony, which would injure the institution that recruited

the parent's kid(s).

For the record, the courts have not stated a school has not

recruited or used "undue influence." The argument has been

shifted to free speech and constitutional issues, not recruiting

issues.

 

 

Sorry, but you are wrong about the letters. When you sign

an enrollment contract you are contractually obligated to the tuition

for the year and you also pay a deposit towards that obligation.

So yes, they sent money to the school. This legal document would

by definition make them fully committed to the school.

 

TSSAA argued that the letters did not constitute enrollment. The

Appeals Court did not agree with the argument. The Court held that

the TSSAA's provision was intended to prohibit the participation

in an actual sporting event (spring practice would not be considered

a sporting event based on the court's interpretation) until the student

was actually in school. According to the Appeals Court ruling this

provision did not apply to this specific situation.

 

You said that an affidavit was proof. I agree that it is a form of

evidence but is by no means proof. I do litigation support

in my practice which involves giving and preparing others

for depositions so I have a pretty good idea what constitutes

evidence.

 

Read the opinion, the undue influence issue was absolutely

part of the free speech argument. Unless the TSSAA could

prove that BA was using undue influence over these students,

then the communication was appropriate and prohibition by the

TSSAA would be an infringement of that free speech. For you to

try assert that BA's communication with students that had signed legally

binding contracts was inappropriate is absolute nonsense. Show

me where BA sent letters to students that had not signed

enrollment contracts and I will concede your point.

 

This case is entirely about BA's right to communicate with students

that it believes had committed to BA. The TSSAA was using this

technical violation (their assertion-not mine) as a means of attempting

to passify certain member schools by finding some means of

punishing BA for infractions that the other member schools believe

to have occurred but could not prove.

 

Once again, I am willing to concede that violations at BA or other

private schools may have occurred in years past. My point is that there is no

systemic pattern of behavior pervasive at BA or most other private

schools to violate the rules of communication with prospective students.

If you have proof otherwise, then give Ronnie a call.

[jek]

It is irresponsible to defend something when

you don't know the facts. Not all of the 8th

graders had signed a contract to attend BA.

 

The letter from a successful coach inviting you

to spring practice has a lot of influence.

 

Sorry I missed this earlier. Where do you get

your information? All of the students in question

had signed legally binding enrollment contracts.

Are you saying that you have information not

provided to the courts?

[VolunteerGeneral]

This type of recruiting would not make "everyone" better. Do we want coaches, administrators, alumns, boosters, companies, etc. to knock on people's homes and recruit a kid for athletic purposes?

 

The recruiting process has corrupted college athletics. Is this what we want high school coaches to do? I thought we wanted them to coach. Why stop at high school? Get the middle school coaches in on the action. Then we can start putting 5th graders up to the highest bidder. Forget education, athletics is the ticket, right?

 

If some coaches recruit, and others don't recruit, then those who do recruit should play against those who do recruit.

 

Recruiting would make educational athletics on the secondary level worse. Kids would lose perspective, parents would lose perspective, and coaches would lose perspective.

 

Our sensibilities are throw out of balance over this silly lawsuit. Trying to justify recruiting is an admission that high school athletics are not secondary to academics. It is the wrong message, and the value of athletics is distorted at a formative period of education.

 

No, it is not good for everyone.

 

What do you mean bidders? You`ve got it all out of whack Stan. No one is bidding on anything. If a school ,any school, wants to take the interest in my kid to come and discuss what they have to offer (not give as in bidding) then first of all I`m gonna be impressed. Second of all if I`m interested and think it might benefit my child then I`m going to listen to what they have to say. Igf my kid is in the band I might want to even go look at their facilities. I would probably be interested in their booster club and how supportive they are. There is nothing wrong with someone talking to another person about their school.Can they force me to go there...NO And its not just about athletics. If someone from Liberty knew my child was an exceptional student and took the time to call or write expressing an interest in him/her then that will definitely impress me. If someone from TCA called and and did the same I would feel the same. Tell me who does it hurt?

[VolunteerGeneral]

Sorry I missed this earlier. Where do you get

your information? All of the students in question

had signed legally binding enrollment contracts.

Are you saying that you have information not

provided to the courts?

 

I`d like to know that as well. Everything I have read from court accounts say they had all signed contracts.

 

Stan...why don`t you post your evidence on that. Until you can prove that claim I`m gonna assume you are the one who doesn`t know the facts.

[BDURHAM]

Jack Roberts, the Executive Director of the Michigan High School Athletic Association argued the perils of recruitment at the TSSAA Trial in December of 2002. Roberts has written a book with Tom Osborne, when Osborne was the head coach at Nebraska. Roberts gave the most compelling argument against high school recruiting that I have had the pleasure to hear.

 

Roberts manifesto is reflected in the banner at the MHSSA website:

 

Michigan High School Athletic Association - Promoting Educational Athletics

 

No, there is nothing wrong with college academics and athletics. Every student athlete graduates on time, and no student athletes are promised and given anything other than a college education. I have never heard of a college athlete having any problems in the classroom or off the playing field, have you?

 

Is there something wrong with college academics and athletics? Or is this your opinion?

 

How do you know what affect anything will have on the state of high school athletics? Is this type of thing going on in other places of the country for you to base your claims or are you just arbitrarily deciding that it will be affected just as you say?

[VolunteerGeneral]

Oh, oh ... choose me ... choose me! (Hand waving in the air!)

 

Let's see ... travel schools ...

 

Football

Alcoa - travel school (open zoned)

Maryville - travel school (open zoned)

 

Boys Basketball

Liberty Tech - travel school (magnet)

Hamilton - the Memphis 2 step

 

And to go further ... there are several other magnets and open-zoners that made it to the state quarterfinals and semifinals.

 

But we won't ever here about "undue influence" going on at those places.

 

Madison Academic made it to the girls state soccer tournament and the girls state basketball tournament. In basketball they lost by one point in the semi-finals to the eventual champ when a lay up rolled out in the last second. That`s not too bad for another third year school. (Same as Liberty)