BA vs. TSSAA Ruling In

[BDURHAM]

Do you believe that part of the motivation in continuing the appeal process is the issue of who pays the exorbitant legal fees?

 

BTW, great summary of the lawsuit.

 

This case is still far from over. There are probably appeals still to come.

 

What ultimately Brentwood Academy wants is to recruit athletes (Barfield said this in the Tennessean article by making the tuba player analogy) and they want to compete against public schools (their antitrust agument) for a state championship. No merit system or multiplier can equalize this inequity. If they get their way, then high schools will be competing for athletes from middle schools, just like colleges do when they recruit high school kids and state championships by public schools will become rare.

 

The Sixth Circuit in Cincinnati ruled against Brentwood Academy years ago and they appealed to the Supreme Court. I would suspect the same thing will be done by TSSAA. If high schools can recruit, this would have far-reaching implications on every state, thus, it would probably be something the Supreme Court would ultimately decide on. We all need to remember, this is not about BA vs. TSSAA, it is about anti-trust, due-process, education, high school recruiting, and public/private organizations coexsiting. It is an argument about the laws of this land. The actual participants in the Scopes Monkey Trail and Roe vs. Wade, for instance are minor, if not forgotten players, but the laws that came out of courts affected everyone in this nation -- same thing holds true here.

 

So, we are probably looking at a few more years before a final settlement will be made. By the time this case gets settled, there will be a new generation of posters on coacht.com to discuss it -- us current posters will riding into the sunset. In the history of this case, both sides have won, and both have lost. It just so happens that Brentwood Academy wins this latest volley.

 

And, if Brentwood Academy ultimately wins here, they will have won the battle, but lost the war, because the establishment of a new athletic organization that is made up of only public schools is a certainity, and BA would be left with nobody to play but other private schools. Do you think that if BA recruits the best players from Beech, Franklin, Brentwood, etc, that those schools will schedule BA?

 

Also, if BA ultimately wins and can recruit, then other private schools will step up their recruiting - and who do you think would win the recruiting battle if Ensworth, MBA and BA all want the same student?

[BDURHAM]

Being a Monday Morning Quarterback on the lawsuit is easy.

The tougher issue is the rules of the game. Should the TSSAA

have rules about recruiting/undue influence? If the TSSAA has

rules on undue influence, should they enforce them?

 

There were layers of smoke regarding BA before they were penalized

with the violation that led to the lawsuit. It may appear as a minor

violation, but there were layers of smoke behind it.

 

It is not simply a private vs. public school issue. Should coaches,

administrators, alumni, and boosters be allowed to “recruit” individuals

to their school?

 

Have both public and private schools violated the “undue influence” rule?

Yes. If public schools have violated the rule, does that mean that no

private school has ever violated the rule?

 

Has any private school ever recruited a tuba player who played

athletics? Did this athlete actually exist at BA, or was it simply

a great courtroom hypothetical?

 

This lawsuit can change the way coaches have to coach in Tennessee.

What is being lost in this divisive debate is the integrity of the game.

[silverpie]

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was referring to private

schools outside the densely populated areas of Nashville, Knoxville,

Memphis and Chattanooga.

 

OK then. There's St. Andrews-Sewanee and King's Academy, also Webb of Bell Buckle, but those 3 are boarding, so they're a special category. Six I can think of in smaller cities--two in Columbia (C. Academy and Zion Christian), three in Jackson (Trinity, USJ, and JCS), and Clarksville Academy. Probably throw in Friendship Christian (in a less than fully urban area of Wilson County), but not Middle Tennessee Christian (Murfreesboro is basically urban). And of course, there are others that aren't in TSSAA.

[Bighurt]

Stan,

I was responding to 82cat. It appeared that he was saying people were being paid over and above tuition to play at private schools. I agree that there appears to have been cases of tuition being paid on behalf of athletes at private schools. That is wrong but hard to prove.

 

You are correct paying tuition for athletes was not an issue in the lawsuit.

 

BTW. 82cat has not responded to the last 2 question.

Bighurt, please define "pay."

 

There is no question that athletes have been recruited by private secondary schools in Tennessee, and their tuition was not paid by their families.

 

This was not an issue in this lawsuit. One can speculate as to the many reasons this issue has not gone to court.

 

But an intelligent person cannot question that tuition has been paid for athletes at private schools.

 

Having said that, that is not the issue in the lawsuit.

 

I will not name names. It would take about $100,000 in a legal fund to state a name, and prove it in court.

[tnsddeveloper]

Point 1

 

How did the TSSAA Public/Private separation result in the restriction of competition? DII schools can play any school in the state whether or not they are DI or DII. Likewise, a public school can play in DII if they chose to do so. The only thing they can't do is play for a DI state championship. But neither can a Class AAA school play for a Class A championship. What is the difference? Classification (enrollment) causes this. If a DII school chooses not to give financial aid, they can play in DI. I see the DI/DII split, not as a restriction of competition, but rather a simple classification issue. Travel issues come up as a difference between DI and DII and the DII proponents say this is a problem. Well, yes this can be, but you need to remember that regular season requirements are set by a DII committee, made up of DII schools. They are the ones who set the schedules. If they so chose, they could chose to play no inter-league DII games, but just meet in state and regional tournaments.

 

 

The issue is that others have the option of playing with them, but they don't have to same consideration. I know you think "recruiting". However, the courts see it as a free speech issue. There right to tell their story. So forcing them to play in D2 is limiting competition in the courts eyes since they aren't doing anything except using their free speech rights. I'm not arguing here ... just stating the state of the state.

 

Point 2

 

"It will be very difficult for the public schools to form an organization that is not considered a "state agent".

 

If a new association was created just for public schools, what right does a private school have to be a member of that association? How does "state actor" play a part of that? If Franklin, Brentwood, Riverdale, Blackman, Oakland, Ravenwood and Columbia chose to start a Lacross league, can Brentwood Academy go to court to become a member of that league? What is the difference if those school broke away from TSSAA and played all sports against each other? TSSAA is a volunteer organization and any school can drop out if they want.

 

The reason is that private school kids are still state citizens as are their parents. Any organization that is a "state agent" must also consider their rights too and not limit their abilities to participate. This is happening now in a smaller capacity with teams made up of home-schooled kids - not in just athletics, but academic competitions as well.

[Grace Golden Eagles]

OK then. There's St. Andrews-Sewanee and King's Academy, also Webb of Bell Buckle, but those 3 are boarding, so they're a special category. Six I can think of in smaller cities--two in Columbia (C. Academy and Zion Christian), three in Jackson (Trinity, USJ, and JCS), and Clarksville Academy. Probably throw in Friendship Christian (in a less than fully urban area of Wilson County), but not Middle Tennessee Christian (Murfreesboro is basically urban). And of course, there are others that aren't in TSSAA.

 

Mt. Juliet Christian, F.C. Boyd, Sr. Christian

[itzme]

Being a Monday Morning Quarterback on the lawsuit is easy.

The tougher issue is the rules of the game. Should the TSSAA

have rules about recruiting/undue influence? If the TSSAA has

rules on undue influence, should they enforce them?

 

There were layers of smoke regarding BA before they were penalized

with the violation that led to the lawsuit. It may appear as a minor

violation, but there were layers of smoke behind it.

 

It is not simply a private vs. public school issue. Should coaches,

administrators, alumni, and boosters be allowed to “recruit” individuals

to their school?

 

Have both public and private schools violated the “undue influence” rule?

Yes. If public schools have violated the rule, does that mean that no

private school has ever violated the rule?

 

Has any private school ever recruited a tuba player who played

athletics? Did this athlete actually exist at BA, or was it simply

a great courtroom hypothetical?

 

This lawsuit can change the way coaches have to coach in Tennessee.

What is being lost in this divisive debate is the integrity of the game.

This "layers of smoke" nonsense is just that...nonsense. Rumors and vague assertions that people make strangely disappear in the real world. That's what TSSAA and Mr. Carter found out in this case. It amounts to the old "have you stopped beating your wife" analogy.

 

It's real easy to get on a website and make unfounded claims. There are no consequences for that. Hence, it will undoubtedly continue. In the light of day, the real facts come out.

[jek]

Being a Monday Morning Quarterback on the lawsuit is easy.

The tougher issue is the rules of the game. Should the TSSAA

have rules about recruiting/undue influence? If the TSSAA has

rules on undue influence, should they enforce them?

 

There were layers of smoke regarding BA before they were penalized

with the violation that led to the lawsuit. It may appear as a minor

violation, but there were layers of smoke behind it.

 

It is not simply a private vs. public school issue. Should coaches,

administrators, alumni, and boosters be allowed to “recruit” individuals

to their school?

 

Have both public and private schools violated the “undue influence” rule?

Yes. If public schools have violated the rule, does that mean that no

private school has ever violated the rule?

 

Has any private school ever recruited a tuba player who played

athletics? Did this athlete actually exist at BA, or was it simply

a great courtroom hypothetical?

 

This lawsuit can change the way coaches have to coach in Tennessee.

What is being lost in this divisive debate is the integrity of the game.

 

The seriousness of the allegation is not the same as quality of the evidence.

Smoke in the absence of proof carries no weight and nor should it. The

TSSAA went to court with their strongest hand. Do you seriously think that

the TSSAA would be trying to make their case with such a weak charge if

that had substantive evidence? Anyone can make an allegation based on

rumor and inuendo. As I've said many times, if you or anyone has proof

of a violation, then bring it to the attention of the TSSAA.

 

For the record, many of the participants in BA's nationally known fine arts

program also participate in athletics. Come to a BA theatrical performance

if you truly want to be amazed at the talents of high school students. I'm guessing

very few on the other side of this argument really care if their respective

school loses a talented actor, tuba player or potential valedictorian to BA.

 

Many of those posting on the topic want to believe that financial aid to high profile

athletes is the norm when just the opposite is true. The vast majority of students

receiving financial aid are not high profile athletes but rather good students that

participate in a wide variety of activities.

[tnsddeveloper]

Mt. Juliet Christian, F.C. Boyd, Sr. Christian

I would remove MJCA - it takes less than 10 minutes to get to downtown Nashville from there. They just started their athletics programs - football is just a few years old and baseball is 5 or so years old.

 

Also, even though Friendship is right in the middle of farm land, it is about 5-10 minutes from 4 different 4A/5A schools - Lebanon, Gallatin, Mt. Juliet, Wilson Central - and then Station Camp. With another 5A school in the plans for the LaGuardo area of Wilson Co in the next 5-10 years.

 

The seriousness of the allegation is not the same as quality of the evidence.

Smoke in the absence of proof carries no weight and nor should it. The

TSSAA went to court with their strongest hand. Do you seriously think that

the TSSAA would be trying to make their case with such a weak charge if

that had substantive evidence? Anyone can make an allegation based on

rumor and inuendo. As I've said many times, if you or anyone has proof

of a violation, then bring it to the attention of the TSSAA.

 

For the record, many of the participants in BA's nationally known fine arts

program also participate in athletics. Come to a BA theatrical performance

if you truly want to be amazed at the talents of high school students. I'm guessing

very few on the other side of this argument really care if their respective

school loses a talented actor, tuba player or potential valedictorian to BA.

 

Many of those posting on the topic want to believe that financial aid to high profile

athletes is the norm when just the opposite is true. The vast majority of students

receiving financial aid are not high profile athletes but rather good students that

participate in a wide variety of activities.

Well said.

Edited March 20, 2006 by tnsddeveloper

[itzme]

The seriousness of the allegation is not the same as quality of the evidence.

Smoke in the absence of proof carries no weight and nor should it. The

TSSAA went to court with their strongest hand. Do you seriously think that

the TSSAA would be trying to make their case with such a weak charge if

that had substantive evidence? Anyone can make an allegation based on

rumor and inuendo. As I've said many times, if you or anyone has proof

of a violation, then bring it to the attention of the TSSAA.

 

For the record, many of the participants in BA's nationally known fine arts

program also participate in athletics. Come to a BA theatrical performance

if you truly want to be amazed at the talents of high school students. I'm guessing

very few on the other side of this argument really care if their respective

school loses a talented actor, tuba player or potential valedictorian to BA.

 

Many of those posting on the topic want to believe that financial aid to high profile

athletes is the norm when just the opposite is true. The vast majority of students

receiving financial aid are not high profile athletes but rather good students that

participate in a wide variety of activities.

Stop confusing people with the facts!

[Antwan]

OK then. There's St. Andrews-Sewanee and King's Academy, also Webb of Bell Buckle, but those 3 are boarding, so they're a special category. Six I can think of in smaller cities--two in Columbia (C. Academy and Zion Christian), three in Jackson (Trinity, USJ, and JCS), and Clarksville Academy. Probably throw in Friendship Christian (in a less than fully urban area of Wilson County), but not Middle Tennessee Christian (Murfreesboro is basically urban). And of course, there are others that aren't in TSSAA.

 

I wouldn't call any of those areas rural...especially outside of your special category.

[BDURHAM]

You might be surprised at the allegations (smoke) the TSSAA has heard regarding recruiting violations over the years. Proving them is the hard part, but not for the reason you suggest.

 

Why would a parent want to testify against a coach or a school that provided a free education to his/her son? What is the motive?

 

It is insane to think that a private, secondary school in Tennessee has not provided free tuition to a student for athletic purposes. It has also happened in the public schools, but the financial factor with tuition is removed. Anyone who thinks recruiting has never happened is simply sticking their head in the sand.

 

Most people posting and reading this forum know that "most" financial aid is given for educational purposes. The issue is that it should never be given for athletic purposes. A coach or anyone connected with a school should never recruit an athlete.

 

Should a school be allowed to recruit athletes? If you think they should, then you should not be a member of the TSSAA. It goes against their rules. Get the rule changed. Violating an existing rule is not the answer.

 

The seriousness of the allegation is not the same as quality of the evidence.

Smoke in the absence of proof carries no weight and nor should it.

 

Many of those posting on the topic want to believe that financial aid to high profile

athletes is the norm when just the opposite is true. The vast majority of students

receiving financial aid are not high profile athletes but rather good students that

participate in a wide variety of activities.