Why was DII formed?

[Antwan]

What is everyone's opinion on this topic? I have mine.

[itzme]

Clearly, the split was initiated because some public school coaches (primarily football coaches) and administrators felt that the private schools offering need based financial aid had an advantage. This advantage, presumably, was felt to be such that the public schools could not compete against the now DII schools and win with any regularity.

 

That is the reason why. Whether it was a smart, constructive thing to do for high school athletics overall in Tennessee can be, and is, debated.

 

It clearly watered down what a "State Championship" means. DI schools can never make a valid claim to being the very best. That's simply a fact, since they, for whatever reason, split off some of the very best teams in the state.

 

Too bad.

[Antwan]

Clearly, the split was initiated because some public school coaches (primarily football coaches) and administrators felt that the private schools offering need based financial aid had an advantage. This advantage, presumably, was felt to be such that the public schools could not compete against the now DII schools and win with any regularity.

 

That is the reason why. Whether it was a smart, constructive thing to do for high school athletics overall in Tennessee can be, and is, debated.

 

It clearly watered down what a "State Championship" means. DI schools can never make a valid claim to being the very best. That's simply a fact, since they, for whatever reason, split off some of the very best teams in the state.

 

Too bad.

 

I don't think you can say they are the very best every year. I think they are some of the best alright.

 

The reason DII was formed IMO is two letters. You know what they are.

 

If BA had not beaten 5a teams...I don't think it would have happened. If MBA had won...or Christian Brothers...or Baylor...I don't think it would have happened when it did. It is the fact that such a small school beat 5a schools.

[itzme]

I don't think you can say they are the very best every year. I think they are some of the best alright.

 

My point was that DI teams can NEVER make a realistic claim to being the best. If you think some teams are too good, for whatever reason, and split them off because you can't compete, uneven playing field or not, then you have no right to ever claim to being the best.

 

Perhaps a DI team actually is the best some years, but they forfeited any right to make a logical case for that, unless they actually play the DII champ at some point in the season. That rarely happens, and even an also-ran team in DII like BA has taken the 5A Champs to the woodshed twice in the past 4 years.

Edited July 8, 2006 by itzme

[CoachT]

I coached against BA twice, in the early 80s, and enjoyed playing and coaching against them. I always liked coaching against well-coached teams because you knew they were going to be in the right place at the right time which made it a fun game of strategy. The fact that they could whip most of ours at the point of attack made it hard to win, though.

 

I do remember asking Coach Flatt how many boys were in the school and I assume now that his answer was limited to eighth-graders through seniors. The answer was 109. I then asked how many boys played football and the answer was 101. 101 out of 109 and they lived all over Nashville. I asked what happened to the others who came there and he replied that if you didn't play football then there wasn't anything for you to do, that you were left out of many school events, and that they weeded themselves out.

 

If you had a public school team that could compete for the state title, which we didn't, then it was frustrating to know that you were basically playing an all-star team from Franklin/Brentwood/South Nashville. After that happens to enough schools over a 20-year period then the pressure to "level the playing field" increases.

 

Coach Flatt and BA did have some great teams and I did enjoy preparing for them and coaching against them.

 

Regardless of who caused the split, no team in DI or DII can make a realistic claim to being the best.

[Antwan]

My point was that DI teams can NEVER make a realistic claim to being the best. If you think some teams are too good, for whatever reason, and split them off because you can't compete, uneven playing field or not, then you have no right to ever claim to being the best.

 

Perhaps a DI team actually is the best some years, but they forfeited any right to make a logical case for that, unless they actually play the DII champ at some point in the season. That rarely happens, and even an also-ran team in DII like BA has taken the 5A Champs to the woodshed twice in the past 4 years.

 

Taken to the woodshed...hardly. 17-7....and 20-14 in a rainstorm. That reminds me of when my daughter played t-ball. My dad asked her if she won her game that day...and she said..."We creamed them 22-21".

 

 

Your statement that an "also-ran" 350 student school beat the 5a champ...2 of the last 4 years...just strengthens the argument that the formation of DII was justified.

 

Nah...that right to claim who is the best is subjective...at least. It's really a moot point most years now. You have to also consider the DI 4a...3a...2a...and 1a champs...and DII...AA....and DII...A champs.

 

Are DII teams regularly better than the top 8 DI teams as a whole? I don't think there's any doubt about that. It really doesn't matter too much.

Edited July 8, 2006 by Antwan

[itzme]

I coached against BA twice, in the early 80s, and enjoyed playing and coaching against them. I always liked coaching against well-coached teams because you knew they were going to be in the right place at the right time which made it a fun game of strategy. The fact that they could whip most of ours at the point of attack made it hard to win, though.

 

I do remember asking Coach Flatt how many boys were in the school and I assume now that his answer was limited to eighth-graders through seniors. The answer was 109. I then asked how many boys played football and the answer was 101. 101 out of 109 and they lived all over Nashville. I asked what happened to the others who came there and he replied that if you didn't play football then there wasn't anything for you to do, that you were left out of many school events, and that they weeded themselves out.

 

If you had a public school team that could compete for the state title, which we didn't, then it was frustrating to know that you were basically playing an all-star team from Franklin/Brentwood/South Nashville. After that happens to enough schools over a 20-year period then the pressure to "level the playing filed" increases.

 

Coach Flatt and BA did have some great teams and I did enjoy preparing for them and coaching against them.

 

Regardless of who caused the split, no team in DI or DII can make a realistic claim to being the best.

 

I agree with your last statement.

 

I wish there was not a split, but understand that it's not likely to change. I understand why the split was engineered, but I also think (my opinion) that it was based on a lot of bad information, bad assumptions, and even worse reasoning. The coaches and administrators involved placed too much value on winning a "State Championship", and took too drastic a step in eliminating what they perceived as a roadblock to that title. If DII teams won every year, I could almost understand it, but that clearly would not have happened.

 

I think a lot of kids who have attended and played football for Brentwood High, Franklin High, MBA, Ravenwood, BGA and others in the area would take exception to your "all-star team from Franklin/Brentwood/South Nashville" assessment. Some good players? Absolutely. The majority of the good players from the area? No way. Not even remotely close.

 

No question that football is a big deal at BA, but probably not as big as it once was, nor as big as Coach Flatt thinks it is!! Witness the success of the cross-country team, which also suits up in the fall and by any measure has had more success than the football team has had lately. Do you think those guys feel excluded from anything? As far as non-football players being "shut out" of school activities...that's simply ludicrous. May have been more the case years and years ago, but certainly not in the last 8 years since I have been involved at the school.

[itzme]

Your statement that an "also-ran" 350 student school beat the 5a champ...2 of the last 4 years...just strengthens the argument that the formation of DII was justified.

 

 

So that the 5A champs wouldn't have to compete aginst the best teams in the state? Hmm. That is not an argument that most people with a truly competitive spirit would make, IMO. There's a big difference between "winning a State Championship" and proving you are the best on the field. One could make the argument that both Brentwood and Ravenwood were made better by playing those games. So what if they lost.

 

Again, just my opinion. Clearly many coaches disagree.

Edited July 8, 2006 by itzme

[Antwan]

So that the 5A champs wouldn't have to compete aginst the best teams in the state? Hmm. That is not an argument that most people with a truly competitive spirit would make, IMO. There's a big difference between "winning a State Championship" and proving you are the best on the field. One could make the argument that both Brentwood and Ravenwood were made better by playing those games. So what if they lost.

 

Again, just my opinion. Clearly many coaches disagree.

 

Why have classes at all? Why isn't there just one class? The line has to be drawn somewhere...or not at all.

 

If Ravenwood wants to play BA every year...hey...that's alright with me. Just separate them for the playoffs.

[VolunteerGeneral]

What is everyone's opinion on this topic? I have mine.

 

If I recall folks "like" Rankin figured the only way such a small school like BA could compete was that they could get kids to play on financial aid. But in reality they just didn`t like losing to private schools. So Div.II was born based on schools giving financial aid. I don`t think they really expected some private schools to give up financial aid and remain in Div.I. And they have still been trying to complete the split ever since.

[Antwan]

If I recall folks "like" Rankin figured the only way such a small school like BA could compete was that they could get kids to play on financial aid. But in reality they just didn`t like losing to private schools. So Div.II was born based on schools giving financial aid. I don`t think they really expected some private schools to give up financial aid and remain in Div.I. And they have still been trying to complete the split ever since.

 

If they had "tried" to have a complete split...there would already be a complete split.

The last vote was 5-4. All the votes were by public school administrators. I don't think your (like VG) statement holds too much water.

 

I'll also question...how many of the now DI private schools were giving aid...and gave it up?

Edited July 8, 2006 by Antwan

[itzme]

Why have classes at all? Why isn't there just one class? The line has to be drawn somewhere...or not at all.

 

If Ravenwood wants to play BA every year...hey...that's alright with me. Just separate them for the playoffs.

Antwan, why stop there? Why not have ten "State Champions" instead of the current eight? Why not have fifteen, or fifty? My point is that the current playoff system and "Championship" is almost meaningless.

 

I have advocated for doing away with any state championship playoffs and going back to a bowl-game approach.