Why was DII formed?

[uncfan13]

I'll disagree with you that football caused DII. I think that private school success in tennis and golf also led to the split. Football only stepped to the front because of BA's success in Class 5A.

 

Because the success at the so-called minor sports reached across the board, and not just football, it most likely garnered more support from schools that weren't concerned about who was winning championships in football.

 

As long as privates were successful in "country club" sports such as tennis and golf, no one cared. When you have privates dominating the ultimate blue collar sport, high school football, it hit the fan. Girls softball is another hot button sport that brings out the best in high school parents. Boys basketball was safe because no one could consistently beat the Memphis teams and the other publics couldn't complain about domination or they would sound like a bunch of racsists.

[larry]

As long as privates were successful in "country club" sports such as tennis and golf, no one cared. When you have privates dominating the ultimate blue collar sport, high school football, it hit the fan. Girls softball is another hot button sport that brings out the best in high school parents. Boys basketball was safe because no one could consistently beat the Memphis teams and the other publics couldn't complain about domination or they would sound like a bunch of racsists.

Could it be that sports that require 5 players can normally be competitive in small schools whereas sports that require 22 starters and an equal number of subs, in a school that only has 100 boys, is a little more obvious?

[Indian]

As long as privates were successful in "country club" sports such as tennis and golf, no one cared. When you have privates dominating the ultimate blue collar sport, high school football, it hit the fan. Girls softball is another hot button sport that brings out the best in high school parents. Boys basketball was safe because no one could consistently beat the Memphis teams and the other publics couldn't complain about domination or they would sound like a bunch of racsists.

 

 

You talk like this has been only happening recently. ("As long as privates were successful in "country club" sports such as tennis and golf, no one cared") The best team in the state last season in boys' basketball was Brentwood Academy, with their 300 to 400 student body.

Edited July 10, 2006 by Indian

[larry]

Boys basketball was safe because no one could consistently beat the Memphis teams and the other publics couldn't complain about domination or they would sound like a bunch of racsists.

Are you referring to the Memphis private schools? No, wait, they are white. Nothing racist there.

[larry]

Since uncfan13 brought it up:

 

There is a plan by a large inner-city church in Memphis to start a private school, funded by the church itself and prominent members of the Memphis business community. They will invite the best athletes in Memphis (primarily inner-city) to come to school there, will meet all requirements of the TSSAA wile providing a religious-oriented education, and will have a full graduating class in 2011. They plan to play a national men's basketball schedule, outside their DII schedule in Memphis and their hope to play the White Stations and Ridgeways and Raleigh Egypts, similar to what Fork Union does in Virginia.

 

If this plan goes forward they will be the top DII school in basketball every year, no one in Tennessee staying within 20 points and most not within 50. As their funding grows they will add football and other sports, too, if all goes according to plan. They will be the BA of the 70s and 80s today. It will be interesting to see how DII reacts.

Edited July 10, 2006 by larry

[tnsddeveloper]

Are you referring to the Memphis private schools? No, wait, they are white. Nothing racist there.

Are they white? Last I checked, there are plenty of black students at all the privates in Memphis. Easily enough to compare to the national average of blacks within the US. Let's not rattle off about things we know nothing about.

[rollredroll]

As to it being 'Deep Throat', no it wasn't. It was someone who evidently owned a car dealership as a car was offered also. I should have asked but instead I just hung up on them as I was NOT about to send my kid to another county just to play ball.

 

We went round and round on this over a year ago (thread). I must admit it does seem rather odd that the car was not mentioned when we were discussing this last time; just the tuition offer. Conventional wisdom would lead one to believe that juicy things like an offer of a car wouldn't be left out of a conversation of underhanded recruiting.

 

My guess is that someone was trying to play a trick on you - a mean trick, considering we're dealing with kids.

[Baldcoach]

I'm not sure why you throw out Baylor, even though they're Division II, when you're talking about college players produced by small privates and small publics. They could be playing in Class 2A, and as for them being Division II, unless players are specifically going there for football the aid should not make a difference. I can look up more later, but in the Chattanooga area this year, Notre Dame had one 1-A signee, Temple and Boyd-Buchanan each had one 1-AA signee. Baylor had one 1-A signee and five, I believe, 1-AA signees. Three not counting Baylor, nine counting Baylor. It's at least one by the four established private school teams, one by non-established Temple, and none by the start-ups. As for the publics, in 1A and 2A: Lookout Valley, South Pittsburg, Whitwell, Copper Basin, Sequatchie, Marion, Tyner, Bledsoe combined for one 1-AA signee, none to 1-A.

 

Indian,

 

Baylor is 4a in size AND they are DII, so of course I threw them out...I thought we were talking about 1a and 2a schools that had advantages over small publics? That also excludes Notre Dame as they are 3a, but we can leave them in if you want to. And I also thought you specified D1 recruits, not 1aa, but hey, I'm game for either one. So by my count that is 1 Kicker from Boyd and I don't know about Temple, and one kid from Notre Dame. The kid from South Pitt went, right? What about the kid from Tyner...he was awesome! Surely someone picked him up?

 

But you also said in the last 5 years...and if we are gonna be meaningful we should probably look at the last 10 years. I'm not sure of the numbers but I'm sure some Tyner fans can help us out...I'm guessing Tyner has averaged at least 1 kid a year in 1a or 1aa for the last 10 years. South Pitt would have 2 or 3. I'm not sure about the rest. At Boyd we have a grand total of 4 kids who signed 1aa, one of whom quit before the end of the season for injuries, 2 of whom are still playing, and one of whom signed this year. We have no D1a kids. Dont know about Notre Dame.

 

Let's just look at Boyd and Tyner for comparison. Both teams have done well in the last 10 years...both were considered powerhouses in their classifications. Which has sent more kids to D1 or D1aa? Now, given the relative eligibility for college and graduation rates which one has had the most college level players? I'm guessing the answer is apparent.

[Indian]

Robinson was South Pittsburg's first signee in 1-A or 1-AA that I remember this decade. Baylor could be 2A if they weren't Division II, if not then throw them out for this discussion. Like I said, unless they're getting students specifically for sports the aid should not make a difference, and supposedly, no Division II school does that. Notre Dame would be 2A without a multiplier. That's why I'm including them, just going by school population here. Tyner had two players go to junior colleges and one to Carson-Newman. Whether the two that went juco can end up Division I remains to be seen, one likely should have and will, but who knows what will happen between then and now. His brother/cousin, not sure of the relation, should have and ended up Division II. Quarterback from Temple went to Charleston Southern, 1-AA, linebacker from Notre Dame to Navy, 1-A, kicker/all-purpose player from Boyd-Buchanan to UTC, 1-AA. I include 1-AA because it's all Division I, very high quality football whether the average fan realizes it or not (look at all the pros that come out of 1-AA, including Terrell Owens). You want to throw graduation rates and qualifying scores in there, if that's a factor then likely so is ineligible players in high school for flunking, a further reason for a split if you're going to use the grades in the breakdown.

Edited July 11, 2006 by Indian

[itzme]

Since uncfan13 brought it up:

 

There is a plan by a large inner-city church in Memphis to start a private school, funded by the church itself and prominent members of the Memphis business community. They will invite the best athletes in Memphis (primarily inner-city) to come to school there, will meet all requirements of the TSSAA wile providing a religious-oriented education, and will have a full graduating class in 2011. They plan to play a national men's basketball schedule, outside their DII schedule in Memphis and their hope to play the White Stations and Ridgeways and Raleigh Egypts, similar to what Fork Union does in Virginia.

 

If this plan goes forward they will be the top DII school in basketball every year, no one in Tennessee staying within 20 points and most not within 50. As their funding grows they will add football and other sports, too, if all goes according to plan. They will be the BA of the 70s and 80s today. It will be interesting to see how DII reacts.

If they are to play in TSSAA, they will have the same travel limitations as every other school. They'd be smarter to just play the national schedule and blow off TSSAA if they really want to be an Oak Hill.

[Baldcoach]

Robinson was South Pittsburg's first signee in 1-A or 1-AA that I remember this decade. Baylor could be 2A if they weren't Division II, if not then throw them out for this discussion. Like I said, unless they're getting students specifically for sports the aid should not make a difference, and supposedly, no Division II school does that. Notre Dame would be 2A without a multiplier. That's why I'm including them, just going by school population here. Tyner had two players go to junior colleges and one to Carson-Newman. Whether the two that went juco can end up Division I remains to be seen, one likely should have and will, but who knows what will happen between then and now. His brother/cousin, not sure of the relation, should have and ended up Division II. Quarterback from Temple went to Charleston Southern, 1-AA, linebacker from Notre Dame to Navy, 1-A, kicker/all-purpose player from Boyd-Buchanan to UTC, 1-AA. I include 1-AA because it's all Division I, very high quality football whether the average fan realizes it or not (look at all the pros that come out of 1-AA, including Terrell Owens). You want to throw graduation rates and qualifying scores in there, if that's a factor then likely so is ineligible players in high school for flunking, a further reason for a split if you're going to use the grades in the breakdown.

 

Ok, Baylor is listed as 745 students. I think that is 3a, but it could squeak 2a...but again, I thought you were talking about unfair advantages to 1a and 2a publics??? Baylor is DII.

 

Ok, now for graduation rates. I thought you were trying to make the point that the small privates had more good athletes than the small publics by comparing the number of scholarship players. If not then I apologize. If so then my point is that you have to figure in drop out and eligibility numbers to get the actual number of athletes that are capable of college level play.

 

For instance: If the combined Hamilton/Marion County public school drop out rate is 40% (just an example) and of the remaining 60% only half are able/eligible to go to college, then you only have 30% of your students who are in high school going to college. Being generous and assuming that the athletes fall into the average range for students in general, only 30% of the college capable (athletically) Football players will actually be in a position to go on to college. So if the small publics in the area have sent 15 kids to D1a and aa schools in the last 10 years, they actually had something like 45 kids that could have played at that level but 30 of them weren't eligible to go to college for some reason.

 

On the other hand, the small privates have better than a 90% graduation rate and most have a 98%+. So if they have sent 15 (just for comparison) kids to D1a and aa they actually had 15 - 17 that could have played and almost all of them were eligible.

 

Thus, while the numbers look even and could be used to argue that privates have more college level athletes than the publics by population, the actual numbers of athletes are not even, and the argument falls apart.

Edited July 11, 2006 by Baldcoach

[Baldcoach]

Here are the most recently compiled numbers for Tennessee's graduation rates and college readiness rates...

 

Graduation rate 57%

College readiness rate 31%

 

Here is a link to the study...

 

http://www.tennessean.com/education/ssibox...15_gradrate.pdf

 

There was a less than 10% difference nationwide between the study's "college readiness rate" and the actual college attendance rate, so max college attendance rate for Tennesssee is 34%.