Division II Football restructuring?

[tnsddeveloper]

Dear Developer:

 

I bow to your superior knowlege of why each individual private school was created. It is obvious I should have recognized that you, and only you, can determine what is correct or otherwise, even when you use the modifier, "IF". A mighty big one, I might add.

Now that you recognize that I'm the most knowledgable here ... can I convince you to sign your paychecks over to me. And oh yeah, be sure to drink the Kool-Aid.

 

Based on your all-knowing interpretation, perhaps it is time the DI schools left the TSSAA in the hands of DII and created their own.

Again, you forget the state-actor part of the entire thing. If the TSSAA is funded with public funds and admins are paid or work on behalf of public entities ... then the TSSAA or whatever new organization can not keep other tax paying citizens from being a part of said organization. Do I need to hold a class on this?

 

In my earlier post I acknowledged one of the issues that degraded discussion of this issue into debate based on lines drawn in the sand included the apparent arrogance of some private school supporters. Here's a real blanket statement: You just made the point for me.

That is the thing. The only point you made was one that was incorrect and untrue.

Edited August 21, 2006 by tnsddeveloper

[tnsddeveloper]

Buzz, as long as I'm at it, let me disagree with your last statemetn. People cannot go where they choose. If there was a voucher system in place, if public schools could refuse admittance, then people could go where they choose. But at the present time, none of this possible for ALL students.

Actually .... the vast majority of the population has a choice. They can opt to send their kids to a private. They can opt to live in districts they want their kids to attend. Even beyond that, kids can apply to magnets. It's amazing how there are so many excellent basketball players that get admitted to MLK in Nashville. Even beyond that, some school districts allow you to pay tuition to attend their public ... see Alcoa and Maryville. And finally, most metropolitan areas that make up the VAST majority of schools within the state have open zones - meaning a kid that lives in the McGavock zone can opt to attend Hillsboro because they have basketweaving or the International Bac degrees.

 

I think that just about covers everyone.

[Village Idiot]

Actually .... the vast majority of the population has a choice. They can opt to send their kids to a private. They can opt to live in districts they want their kids to attend. Even beyond that, kids can apply to magnets. It's amazing how there are so many excellent basketball players that get admitted to MLK in Nashville. Even beyond that, some school districts allow you to pay tuition to attend their public ... see Alcoa and Maryville. And finally, most metropolitan areas that make up the VAST majority of schools within the state have open zones - meaning a kid that lives in the McGavock zone can opt to attend Hillsboro because they have basketweaving or the International Bac degrees.

 

I think that just about covers everyone.

 

Partially correct, and you bring up the arguement that the publics usually rely on and I contend they can't win. Student "Avg. Joe" can't get in to any school he wishes, especially in suburbia with overcrowding. For others it is an economic issue or else the magnets are "full" and "Avg Joe" doesn't win the lottery.

 

The truly frightening part is that we have found common ground to agree on: Public schools recruit and recruit athletes! My problem has always been (can't believe I'm gonna post this!) public schools grousing that "(INSERT PRIVATE SCHOOL OF CHOICE, USUALLY BA) is recruiting all the good athletes" when they've got three or four athletes that are out of zone. Remember the original post....with the perceived arrogance of some privates comes the perceived hypocrisy (not the same term) of the publics.

 

As for the TSSAA being a state actor, I really believe that to be a stretch and the ruling to be one I would have expected out of the Ninth District, not the Sixth. And we've debated today a great deal about opinions, but the bottom line is that the opinion of the majority of nine pepole will all that matters when this is done.

 

VI

[hardtackle]

Another misinformed soul. This is not a choice they made freely. The TSSAA created Div II, not the schools. The schools did not want to create a separate league and they do NOT give scholarships to athletes. They give need based financial aid to students that show academic merit. The schools do NOT pay for a student to play sports. I don't know who told you that, but they are dead wrong.

You call me misinformed. This need based financial aid is money to athletes. Money is Money, any way you want to call it, Kids go to school free or reduced. It is the same thing as a scholorship. Just happens to be an athlete. OK. Check and see if the majority of these receiving money are athletes or just students. As far as them having a choice, I know more about TSSAA rules and the schools choosing to go division 2 than you ever will. You are the mis- guided person.

[VolunteerGeneral]

Wait a minute Indian, I never said that. I said that schools do not hand out scholarships to athletes. Are people attracted to some of the private schools based on athletics? Sure. Do they still have to make the grades, study, and go to class like everyone else? Yes. And the situation with McClendon at Baylor? Well, I'm not an insider but the rumor was he was asked to leave for honor code violations, but don't quote me on that. It doesn't matter where he was from. Is the community entitled to have him go to their zoned school? No. People can go where they choose...

 

Buzzman..I didn`t think you were saying what Indian thought you did. I fully understood your post. To the best of my knowledge he didn`t leave voluntarily. In fact I didn`t understand any of Indian`s post or any point he was trying to make. The fact that he is referred to as "former Baylor star..." is only natural because if you refer to where he played football it was Baylor. You couldn`t rightly say "former Walker Valley star.." because he played no football there. And yes "Walker Valley graduate..." would be correct but not necessarily more appropriate since it is McClendon`s football talents that are normally in discussion.

[VolunteerGeneral]

It is completely misinformed. You push forward the impression that most if not all privates were founded directly because of "white flight". It is hardly the case. You can pick up a middle TN area private school guide in Davidson, Rutherford, Wilson, Williamson, and Sumner counties by getting the May or June edition of the local "Parent" magazine.

If in fact your comments are incorrect, erroneous, and/or non-factual ... they are then by definition uninformed (I used misinformed I believe) and untrue. You made a blanket statement that you can't defend other than to say "I'm not misinformed."

That is the thing. The D2 schools don't want to walk away. They don't want to travel across state for athletic events. They want to be able to play the neighborhood rivals. Why would they walk away when it looks as though they will back in the fold soon? With the TSSAA being a state actor ... they can not force or discriminate against any other group that abides by fair and non-discriminatory rules to leave the organization. This is the crux of the entire lawsuit. That the rule and punishment was unfair considering the TSSAA's position of being a state actor and the depression of BA's rights of free speach.

 

tns...I read your link from earlier, but I failed to grasp what you were trying to say when you talked about percentages of black in Middle tennessee area private schools. Can you elaborate on that?

[tnsddeveloper]

You call me misinformed. This need based financial aid is money to athletes. Money is Money, any way you want to call it, Kids go to school free or reduced. It is the same thing as a scholorship. Just happens to be an athlete. OK. Check and see if the majority of these receiving money are athletes or just students. As far as them having a choice, I know more about TSSAA rules and the schools choosing to go division 2 than you ever will. You are the mis- guided person.

Just a FYI. There is a federal clearing house that determines the financial aid kids get to attend privates. It is there that decisions on how much a student/family should get in terms of financial aid.

[tnsddeveloper]

tns...I read your link from earlier, but I failed to grasp what you were trying to say when you talked about percentages of black in Middle tennessee area private schools. Can you elaborate on that?

Earlier in that thread someone claimed that "white flight" was the real reason why we have privates - or at least the vast majority of them. If I remember correctly (I've been hit about the head and shoulders too much in life to have a fully functioning noggin' ), the reasoning was a large glut of privates founded during a particular time frame or small window of years. I was trying to point out that most privates were not founded during that time frame and hence not "white flight".

Edited August 22, 2006 by tnsddeveloper

[Baldcoach]

Developer--

 

There is nothing "misinformed" about the earlier post. You just disagree. I'd love to see the guide to private schools you mention in the linked post. Unfortunately, the linked conversation turned quickly away from high school athletics into a lenghty theological debate, a discussion that never ends or is won.

 

The issue of public vs. private will be debated ad naseum. The one true perception, after listening to this for 25 years, is a certain perception of arrogance on the part of some private supporters and a certain perception of defensiveness on the part of public supporters. I may be wrong, but you seem to be a strong supporter of private schools as indicated by your comments. This issue brings out your passion, as indicated by the number of posts (32% of your total, which is a goodly total) in this discussion alone. I have respect for those who remain true to their passion, even if I disagree with them. However, disagreeing with you alone should not be enough to brand me uninformed or make the statements untrue. In your opinion they are correct, but your opinion is not gospel (so to speak) and niether is mine.

 

As for the court case, there is way too much money involved in too many different pockets for such a simple answer as doing away with DII. As much as I disagree with the TSSAA on some things, if it were that easy, the DII schools would have walked away and created their own voluntary membership organization a long time ago.

 

 

Well, I can't speak for Middle Tennessee Schools but I have a good amount of info on East Tennessee DI privates. Let's see....here in the 'nooga there is Notre Dame (well before the 60s), Boyd (est 1952), CCHS (early 80s), Temple (don't know for sure), Grace (late 80s/early 90s), Silverdale (late 90s/early 2000s), David Brainerd (same), Collegedale Academy (90s I think), and a school in Cleveland that started 4 or 5 years ago. So that is 9 DI privates with not a single one (except maybe Temple...dunno) started during or near segregation. I'm not as familiar with Knoxville schools, but I know that CAK started in the last 10 or 12 years, Knoxville Christian is relatively new, and that there is at least one other fairly new DI private (it and KC are combined for Football).

 

Thus, at a quick glance, the contention that the small privates were started to avoid segregation doesn't seem to be supported by any evidence in East Tennessee...quite the contrary. I don't know about Middle Tennessee.

[Buzzman]

You call me misinformed. This need based financial aid is money to athletes. Money is Money, any way you want to call it, Kids go to school free or reduced. It is the same thing as a scholorship. Just happens to be an athlete. OK. Check and see if the majority of these receiving money are athletes or just students. As far as them having a choice, I know more about TSSAA rules and the schools choosing to go division 2 than you ever will. You are the mis- guided person.

 

Mis-guided? First, I said you were misinformed, not mis-guided. Secondly, I could care less about how much you know regarding TSSAA rules and "schools choosing to go division 2." The TSSAA is nothing more than a "good 'ole boy" organization with political motivations. It's basically a bureaucracy and I happen to disagree with their inept and ill-conceived policies. Also, it would of been nice if the TSSAA would have shown the same backbone in standing up to it's public members when they pushed this DivII thing through and when they went after Brentwood Academy. It probaly could have saved a lot of space on discussion boards along with a hefty legal bill. Do you really think the TSSAA serves the interest of every member school? The thing is, and this may surprise you, I want the TSSAA around to govern TN high school athletics. But, enough is enough! First there was the creation of a separate division, secondly we had the multiplier. The only thing this has done is create animosity between public and private institutions and destroyed decades old rivalries.

 

It's okay to give financial aid to a student if a school chooses to remain in DivI, but he can't play a sport. That bascially tells me that we don't care about the student; we just wanna win....

[hardtackle]

I did not call you mis-guided by mistake. You are like most private school people who will pay a poor kid's way to your school in the name of academicis and we all know that if he could not play ball he would not get any consideration. But bless you for caring about the poor and giving them a chance to be in your school. What would really be nice is that any student going to a private school with any type of aid could not play athletics. Also any public school student who chooses to go to another school other than his zoned school can not play athletics. Now everyone can be in in the same division and play for a state championship. Also, I did not mean to hurt your feelings just because I know more about the split . Sorry.

[Buzzman]

I did not call you mis-guided by mistake. You are like most private school people who will pay a poor kid's way to your school in the name of academicis and we all know that if he could not play ball he would not get any consideration. But bless you for caring about the poor and giving them a chance to be in your school. What would really be nice is that any student going to a private school with any type of aid could not play athletics. Also any public school student who chooses to go to another school other than his zoned school can not play athletics. Now everyone can be in in the same division and play for a state championship. Also, I did not mean to hurt your feelings just because I know more about the split . Sorry.

 

LOL...I seemed to have struck a nerve with you; probably from your condescending attitude I'm sure you're one of those people that's going to have to contribute to BA's bill? Life just hasn't been fair to you. Judging by your last post you seem to know a lot about....well, nothing.