Age to throw curveball

[Solomon]

QUOTE(Hitter @ Jun 3 2007 - 05:05 PM) 826470891[/snapback]My son pitched a game this weekend and threw 95 pitches. Is this to many pitches for an 11 year old? I iced his arm after the game and told them he could not pitch the next day. This made the coach mad and my son only got to play one inning out of 12 today. The shortstop got hurt and he would not let him come out. He told him to stink it up because he would not put anyone else in the position. My son and another both capable of playing the position were on the bench. The kid was bent over holding his arm. We have ask to be released from the team.

 

 

Hitter - Get him out of there ASAP. These "coaches" are morons.

[Hitter]

QUOTE(Solomon @ Jun 3 2007 - 06:09 PM) 826470893[/snapback]Hitter - Get him out of there ASAP. These "coaches" are morons.

 

 

 

We turned in his uniforms and ask to be released. Now I have to get the signed forms from the coach because my son still wants to play some pickup ball.

 

This was a difficult decision to make because I do not want him to think he can be a quitter. It was the right decision.

[Mwalls14]

at age 11, i wouldn't throw more than 60 pitches. I'll put it this way. I coach 18's and we have them on a 80 pitch count

[riverdaleman]

QUOTE(Hitter @ Jun 3 2007 - 05:05 PM) 826470891[/snapback]My son pitched a game this weekend and threw 95 pitches. Is this to many pitches for an 11 year old? I iced his arm after the game and told them he could not pitch the next day. This made the coach mad and my son only got to play one inning out of 12 today. The shortstop got hurt and he would not let him come out. He told him to stink it up because he would not put anyone else in the position. My son and another both capable of playing the position were on the bench. The kid was bent over holding his arm. We have ask to be released from the team.

 

now that you have talked to the coaches (cant believe they were going to pitch him the next day anyway surely he was out of innings)and they responded the way they did NOW quitting would be an option...95 pitches for a 6 inning game is pretty good that is only 15 pitches per inning he should be ok with that on his arm espcially at this point in the season...so that is not alraming what is alraming is the kid holding his arm and them not caring (i do not know the kid if it is one of my twins he isa woos and nothing is wrong with him so i tell him to lets go) he may know this kid is the same way i dont know BUT at some point when the kid is holding his arm asking to come out and you have kids capable of taking his place you just gotta do it.

[Hitter]

QUOTE(riverdaleman @ Jun 4 2007 - 12:29 AM) 826471047[/snapback]now that you have talked to the coaches (cant believe they were going to pitch him the next day anyway surely he was out of innings)and they responded the way they did NOW quitting would be an option...95 pitches for a 6 inning game is pretty good that is only 15 pitches per inning he should be ok with that on his arm espcially at this point in the season...so that is not alraming what is alraming is the kid holding his arm and them not caring (i do not know the kid if it is one of my twins he isa woos and nothing is wrong with him so i tell him to lets go) he may know this kid is the same way i dont know BUT at some point when the kid is holding his arm asking to come out and you have kids capable of taking his place you just gotta do it.

 

 

 

His first inning was a 35 pitch inning. He battled his way out of it and only 1 run was scored. The shortstop acted hurt and was crying. Don't know what the outcome is and if he was really hurt.

[Frayser1974]

QUOTE(1moreDBmom @ Jun 2 2007 - 07:19 PM) 826470595[/snapback]I can tell through your comment that you learned a hard lesson the hard way. I am glad that there are people out there who care more about the kids on both teams then the game at hand.

I did notice one thing you said that can't be farther from the trugh however. I think you were perhaps defending the coaches who make decisions in game situations to try to pull out a win but I have one problem with the "living in the moment..." theory.

 

That kid was not taught the curve ball in the heat of the moment between the 2nd and 3rd out on a coach visit to the mound.

 

Somewhere along the way somebody planned ahead of time and taught these kids how to throw curves. No way that could be a heat of the moment decision in a tough game.

 

I didnt say heat of the moment. Every kid will mess with a curve out in the yard with his friends, just like a knuckle ball and every other pitch. It is usually the coach who applies it during the game. I surely am not defending the coachs. Any off speed pitch at an early age (changeup) will work just as well

[fromthetop2]

When I said "in the moment", I meant it this way: it is a coach who is trying to win that game, close out that inning, stop that rally.

They know the kid is throwing a curve (few are consistent in putting over for strikes; the intent is to get the batter to swing at it.)

They'll call for the curve ball to the catcher. They lose track how often they call for it- if it's working, keep using it.

Kids don't figure out a curve between innings or trips to the mound. So the coaches end up calling umpteen numbers of curves, regardless if he is throwing it right. They may have a total pitch count, but they aren't counting curve balls. They don't call for it if it isn't working or being swung at. That is the reality.

 

Personally, I'd like to see what would happen if a league (U-15) would have the umpires issue a warning on the first curve ball with successive ones being called balls. An umpire who's been around enough can see the arm angle, the release, and rotation to know if it is intentional or not.

That is a pipe dream, just as much as not calling for curves in a game at a young age.

 

The shortstop being hurt? He left him in? Ignorant. Kids at this age don't know what it means when their bodies are telling them something is wrong. Plus, many parents and coaches will just tell him to "gut it up" when he should be shut down. I'd much rather err on the side of caution than to damage a kid's arm. You can think that is encouraging a kid to be a quitter if he's not really hurt- I say that the kid is under enough pressure from parent's, peers, and coaches and it is manifesting itself this way, plus you have NO way of knowing if he is hurt or not.

I learned this lesson the hard way- and it cost my son four months of ball.

[Frayser1974]

QUOTE(fromthetop2 @ Jun 4 2007 - 05:00 PM) 826471265[/snapback]When I said "in the moment", I meant it this way: it is a coach who is trying to win that game, close out that inning, stop that rally.

They know the kid is throwing a curve (few are consistent in putting over for strikes; the intent is to get the batter to swing at it.)

They'll call for the curve ball to the catcher. They lose track how often they call for it- if it's working, keep using it.

Kids don't figure out a curve between innings or trips to the mound. So the coaches end up calling umpteen numbers of curves, regardless if he is throwing it right. They may have a total pitch count, but they aren't counting curve balls. They don't call for it if it isn't working or being swung at. That is the reality.

 

Personally, I'd like to see what would happen if a league (U-15) would have the umpires issue a warning on the first curve ball with successive ones being called balls. An umpire who's been around enough can see the arm angle, the release, and rotation to know if it is intentional or not.

That is a pipe dream, just as much as not calling for curves in a game at a young age.

 

The shortstop being hurt? He left him in? Ignorant. Kids at this age don't know what it means when their bodies are telling them something is wrong. Plus, many parents and coaches will just tell him to "gut it up" when he should be shut down. I'd much rather err on the side of caution than to damage a kid's arm. You can think that is encouraging a kid to be a quitter if he's not really hurt- I say that the kid is under enough pressure from parent's, peers, and coaches and it is manifesting itself this way, plus you have NO way of knowing if he is hurt or not.

I learned this lesson the hard way- and it cost my son four months of ball.

 

I said almost the same thing.........Let it be a league rule until a certain age. I know some kids mature sooner, but we are talking in general here. Who will remember the tournaments you win at age 10 anyway

[gunzablazin5]

QUOTE(Hitter @ Jun 3 2007 - 06:05 PM) 826470891[/snapback]My son pitched a game this weekend and threw 95 pitches. Is this to many pitches for an 11 year old? I iced his arm after the game and told them he could not pitch the next day. This made the coach mad and my son only got to play one inning out of 12 today. The shortstop got hurt and he would not let him come out. He told him to stink it up because he would not put anyone else in the position. My son and another both capable of playing the position were on the bench. The kid was bent over holding his arm. We have ask to be released from the team.

 

 

 

Hitter...your son's hopefully former coach is an idiot. Print this out and give this to him. Also, tell him to get on Coach T and register for an account so I can talk to this Daddyball guy. He has obviously been drinking to much Busch League Beer. Please get him on here just for me.

[leeblair]

In a semi-related topic that doesn't deserve it's own topic, are any of you involved with a Little League program that has went to the pitch count method of tracking pitchers this year? If so, how is it working. One of the few side effects I see of it is that it's going to make pitchers more aggressive to throw a curve ball more often to strike the kids out and keep the pitch count down.

 

 

My son is 14, and he throws right at 80 mph. He went to Senior League after the high school season ended, and they invoke the 'pitch count' rule. He was only allowed 95 pitches for a 7 inning game. It was not good for him at all.

 

If you strike out every batter on three pitches, you throw 63 pitches. If you add two balls to each batter's count, that turns into a 54 pitch addition. That means the total pitches, allowing for 5 per batter , is 105. The pitch count should be up around 120.

 

They don't allow enough pitches.

 

That being said, I would not allow him to throw a curve ball until now. Most kids who develop a great curve ball in the early years , and throw it a lot, never develop their speed. They begin to rely on the curve- which works in youth leagues, but not in high school.

 

And, most curve ball pitchers lose their break after the second inning. They are really relying on a change of speed, because the break is mostly gone after the second inning. I sit and watch from behind the umpire, and almost always the break is gone after the second inning from fatigue, or lack of concentration. By then, though, the batters are afraid of the curve, and he can bluff his way through the rest of the game. The real technique is keeping them off balance with a change in location and speed that will stay after the break has gone.

 

It's really all about where you want your son to peak. I told mine that he could not throw his curve until he reached the 80mph range. Preferrably high 80's, but I've given in to pressure and let him begin development of the curve. But, he has used his developmental years and the bulk of his growing to develop the speed needed to hopefully reach the next level.

 

His high school coaches taught him the circle change, and it is nothing short of one of the most awesome pitches you can throw. His coaches are excellent coaches- nothing less. But, I kinda got him in trouble over the curve ball, because they wanted him to throw it, and I wouldn't let him. He told me one day, "its kinda hard to make everyone happy".

 

But, by the end of the year, some of the others were having arm trouble. He wasn't. He was getting stronger. Now, he is starting to work with his curve, and it breaks as much as three feet. But, he still has an 80mph fastball, and it's growing all the time.

 

I don't recommend any kid throwing a curve ball before he reaches the 80 mph range. Speed kills- if it weren't true, they'd play slow pitch. The curve ball can kill, too; but it can kill the development of speed.

 

I have seen my son surpass juniors and seniors in speed because of his commitment to the fast ball. Yeah, they got the early wins, and they got the starting time, but now, he's ready for his sophmore year, and already at 80.

 

By next spring, he very well could be at 85 mph. It's all about where you want your son to peak. If you want him to peak in time to be a phenom in High School, and that's as far as he hopes for, then you may start sooner with the breaking ball.

 

But, if you want him to have a future past high school, you should realize that other coaches can teach him any pitch they want him to throw , but they can't teach speed.

 

It has to be developed during his growing years.

 

Just my opinion.

[leeblair]

Fastball and Changeup are the most effective two pitches in the game. The best pitcher I hit against in college was a fastball/changeup guy with a 93mph fastball and 82-84mph changeup. You didn't know what was coming due to both pitches coming out of his hand the same. If you can't win with those two pitches then you don't need to be a pitcher. A curveball is a pitch IN MY OPINION that only needs to be thrown just to show the hitters you have one. No need to make a living off of it.

 

 

 

Great post.

 

 

And, the key to any pitch is : LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION.

 

Changing speed and location keeps the hitter from being able to tee off on the pitch. If the batter is leaning in, you cut him high and inside. If you've got him already off balance , you can throw one right down the pipe , and he'll be caught looking.

 

Catch him looking for a fastball, and you can 'jelly leg' him by throwing the change.

 

Throw the ball low and outside, and he'll dribble it through the infield grass or pop it up when he tries to pull it. Throw the ball just above the waist at arms length from the batter, and he'll crank one that will make you know never to throw that pitch again.

 

Jam him up, and he'll fight his own arms swinging. High and outside, and he'll usually miss or pop up.

 

Add a simple change of speed, and he'll miss altogether.