TSSAA FOOTBALL CLASSIFICATIONS

[rollredroll]

The Division II privates should look hard at scheduling in the nearby states if they feel they can't get in-state opponents. McCallie and Baylor have North Georgia just down the highway and North Alabama just west on the interstate. I remember McCallie scheduled North Jackson, AL and was hammered, they haven't played since. The Nashville schools should look at Kentucky before going to Florida or Texas. It would probably be a better trip than a lot of games on public school schedules.

 

 

No (kidding)! Now, if this was a post from Spring 1997 and we were looking back on it today, it would be viewed as somewhat prophetic, albeit a rehashing of simple geography. In the present, it??™s more retrospective than prospective.

 

Let??™s face it - it??™s not a ???feel???. It??™s an actuality. While one the large Chattanooga DII schools does not appear to have as much difficulty getting in-state games, the other has had, and continues to have, to travel far and wide. Just look at 2007. A large 5A Chattanooga public and a DII Chattanooga private had the same open date listed at the same time on the TSSAA Open Dates page. What happens? Large 5A school ends up playing nine regular season games; DII private ends up playing an out-of-state, start-up public program seemingly named after a fast-food joint.

 

No one really bit on my ???marginalization of the DI schools??? comment earlier (silence is golden, perhaps?). It is truly pitiful that teams from Eskimo towns and startup public programs in other states will play our state??™s best, but our own state??™s publics - some with excellent traditions and resources - generally will not (and hats off to the ones that do, particularly the big 5A Williamson County schools who have stepped up in the last decade by playing DII schools). While perception is only that ??“ perception ??“ it is no wonder that Tennessee high school football is generally seen as average in the South, even with its current resurgence and increasing number of D-I prospects (of course, it doesn??™t help that bordering states like Mississippi, Alabama, and South Carolina are anomalies when it comes to per capita talent).

 

For DII fans, it hasn??™t been all bad, however. Some of these schools have received nice recognition and exposure ??“ more than just a faceless name in black and white in some national newspaper ??“ by being essentially forced to play out-of-state programs. DII will have two games versus out-of-state teams on the NFL Network and ESPNU this Fall. And while playing a ???national??? schedule doesn??™t make one a ???national??? power (and I??™ll add that I don??™t think any of the DII schools have being a ???national??? power as any significant agenda item), it certainly doesn??™t hurt (I bring this point up as there has tended to be a double standard on this board in regards to the validity of national rankings; personally, I put very little stock in them, but they are good debate fodder).

 

On this note, and bringing the point full circle, a Tennessee HS coach was quoted earlier this year as saying, ???We don??™t want to play them???, when a particular out-of-state power was mentioned as a potential 2009 matchup. The article attributed this quote by saying, ???(coach??™s name) quipped???. Given some of the dodging and ducking that occurs in this state, juxtaposed to just the opposite by some of our neighboring state??™s public schools, I wonder how much of that was actually ???quip??? and how much of that was just the flat-out truth.

 

(Note to mods ??“ this is an off-shoot to the classification issue and the dilemmas it causes schools of all kinds in this state ??“ so please don??™t be too hasty to relegate it to the P/P boards).

[ELA]

So far I have not heard of one single person that actually likes the changes. If there is one I would love for them to get on here and tell us all why. Maybe then it will actually make sense for those of us who do NOT like it.

 

 

It doesn't bother me one way or another... maybe it's because I've coached in a scheme like this in the past, I don't know! Like I've said before, there will be some problems along the way. There will be less travel in the regular season and possibly more travel in the playoffs, plus you won't know who you're playing until late Saturday afternoon or into the evening hours after game 10 (more than likely).

 

I can tell the TSSAA how to make a lot more money off this deal but they've probably already thought about it! If they have a Saturday evening combination radio/internet/TV broadcast of the TSSAA playoff pairings aired to announce the brackets on Nov. 1st, they can make a ton of money off sponsors and every player and coach in the state will be watching with their families to see who they play! Like I said, they've probably already got the marketing scheme worked out! lol

 

Silverpie... me, you, Indian, and a few others were debating something like this 7 or 8 years ago if you recall!

[bellgo]

NC, VA, and other states have been using this type of formula for years. I think the automatic qualifiers is a new wrinkle. In both of the other states mentioned, they take the top two teams in district without regard to playoff classification and ALL OTHERS earn a spot as a wild card team based on a formula. MS also has a plan like this in both their public and private school leagues.

 

Now, having said this, every year they tweak the formula to make it work and every year there is somebody upset about the system so I guess you will never please everyone.

 

 

Illinois has a formula along these lines; a little antiquated but it works. Conference champions are automatic qualifiers and teams with six or more wins get a playoff berth. Teams with five wins are on the bubble and that's where the formula of points scored and the whole shabang comes in. Then, teams are placed in a playoff classification based on enrollment.

[Indian]

No (kidding)! Now, if this was a post from Spring 1997 and we were looking back on it today, it would be viewed as somewhat prophetic, albeit a rehashing of simple geography. In the present, it??™s more retrospective than prospective.

 

 

What I meant was if they have to go out of state, look just across the borders instead of hundreds of miles away. Around here, there are a number of teams in North Georgia and North Alabama who could give Baylor and McCallie all they wanted. If those schools don't want to play either than maybe it's not just Tennessee publics who have a problem with it.

[enall]

This assures Dickson County making the playoff every year as long as they beat Rossview.

 

 

 

This is not the case. The team with the best district record between Dickson County and Rossiew would be the automatic qualifier. If Dickson County beat Rossview, but Rossview ends up with a better district record, Rossview gets the playoff slot.

 

Think of the SEC EAST/WEST -- Tennessee can beat Florida, but Florida wins the division because of an overall best record because Tennessee may have lost to two teams from the west.

[big red big blue]

Is the playoff not the best of the best? Highly rated teams are highly rated because of several factors including a large following because of the success. A team playing down in non-district play serves no purpose except scheduling a win that is over by the first quarter. It doesn't prepare a team well against tougher playoff competition.

 

It is a sad state of affairs to force any Tennessee team to play outside of Tennessee when they can play closer to home. Are we not Tennesseans for Tennesseans? TSSAA don??™t seem to think so.

 

 

It's sad, but it's certainly not surprising. In Tennessee, competition is way down on the priority list....well behind things like "feeling good about ourselves" and "making sure everyone is awarded a ribbon."

 

It's really too bad for schools like yours. It must be a rude awakening for a guy like Coach Rector, who obviously values competition and playing "the best" and proving he's got the best. He's the type of guy who truly wants to play anyone, anywhere. That makes him a real fish out of water in Tennessee.

 

When no 4A or 5A would appear in the clinic bowl in 2005 to face MBA in a game whose proceeds went to charity, MBA was forced to play Byrnes from SC. Of course, we would have been within our rights to back out of the game, which was supposed to be an intra-Tennessee game, but we played anyways, were completely outclassed, and got clobbered. Getting clobbered was (imo at least) a lot better than not even trying. But again, we're unique, like Ravenwood, in that regard.

[Stonewall]

NC, VA, and other states have been using this type of formula for years. I think the automatic qualifiers is a new wrinkle. In both of the other states mentioned, they take the top two teams in district without regard to playoff classification and ALL OTHERS earn a spot as a wild card team based on a formula. MS also has a plan like this in both their public and private school leagues.

 

Now, having said this, every year they tweak the formula to make it work and every year there is somebody upset about the system so I guess you will never please everyone.

 

 

 

 

The thing about those states is that they have envied us and how well our system works. No computers, no SOS, no one mad at the end of the year, just a straight system. To me, the TSSAA is getting a free pass from everyone on how this is just about money. We only had 3 classes for years. Then we went to 5, then we went to 7 (Private schools). Now they drop us back to 3, but only for the regular season? The old adage goes, "follow the money". This stinks to high heaven and it has very little to do with what's best for the kids.

[ELA]

This is not the case. The team with the best district record between Dickson County and Rossiew would be the automatic qualifier. If Dickson County beat Rossview, but Rossview ends up with a better district record, Rossview gets the playoff slot.

 

Think of the SEC EAST/WEST -- Tennessee can beat Florida, but Florida wins the division because of an overall best record because Tennessee may have lost to two teams from the west.

 

 

E... good to see you online to help us understand all of this! I hope you and your family are well!

 

I have to do a radio show next week to explain some of this to our local fans, so I may need some help since I know you know the math and numbers.

 

Please correct me if I am wrong:

 

1. In our district: The top two teams go to the playoffs and it doesn't matter if they are 5A or 6A, RIGHT?

2. The top team in each classification will also get a bid unless they are one of the two that already qualified (being 1 or 2).

3. All other teams will be based on the wild card formula, RIGHT?

 

Okay, here are a couple of other questions:

 

A. Almost everyone who wins 4 games will get into the playoffs (if my math is right). There might be some who don't but with six classifications for the playoffs and 32 teams, it almost works out that way.

 

B. Will there be any reward for playing up or down in non-district games or will the win-loss record be the only thing that will count?

 

If you can clear this up for me, I will feel more confident in talking about it to others!

 

Thanks,

 

LEE

[enall]

Please correct me if I am wrong:

 

 

(OK Here goes -- It will be something like this -- wording and tweaking will come from TSSAA office as the final plan is developed - so there may be some adjustments as to my comments.)

 

1. In our district: The top two teams go to the playoffs and it doesn't matter if they are 5A or 6A, RIGHT?

 

 

Yes that is right.

 

It may help to see a district standing as it will probably appear in the papers:

 

AAA

District 8* District Overall

W L W L

1. Columbia(6A)

2. Franklin Co.(6A)

3. Lawrence Co.(5A)

4. Lincoln Co.(6A)

5. Shelbyville(5A)

6. Tullahoma(5A)

 

 

*(Top 6A school and top 5A school are automatic qualifiers; any team finishing 1st or 2nd are automatic qualifiers).

 

If the final standing were like this then Columbia and Franklin County are in the 6A playoffs because they finished 1 and 2. Lawrence County is in because they finished as the top 5A school. In class 6A there are seven wildcard teams, but since both Columbia and Franklin County get in then that takes one wildcard away from the rest of the state (beause only one was expected from this district) -- meaning that instead of 25 6A automatic qualifiers there are now 26 - leaving 6 wildcards for the rest of the state. Based on this Linclon County could still make the 6A playoffs as a wildcard. Same holds for Shelbyville and Tullahoma -- their only chance to get in is a wildcard.

 

 

 

 

2. The top team in each classification will also get a bid unless they are one of the two that already qualified (being 1 or 2).

 

 

Yes, see above.

 

3. All other teams will be based on the wild card formula, RIGHT?

 

 

Yes, see above.

 

Okay, here are a couple of other questions:

 

A. Almost everyone who wins 4 games will get into the playoffs (if my math is right). There might be some who don't but with six classifications for the playoffs and 32 teams, it almost works out that way.

 

 

Each class will have approx 55-60 teams, so a little over 1/2 make the playoffs. I would think that a team would be a longshot to make the playoffs with only 4 wins -- unless they are in a district where there is only 1 qualifier. I would think that there would be far fewer 4 win teams getting in than under the current format.

 

 

B. Will there be any reward for playing up or down in non-district games or will the win-loss record be the only thing that will count?

 

 

In the district the same formula will be used to determine standings.

 

A) In the event of a tie for the region winner, runner-up, and third-place, if either team(s) has defeated the other(s) in regular-season play, the team(s) shall be rated above the other(s) in the standings. (After the region winner has been determined, the tie-breaker procedure shall begin all over again starting at the top to work out the runner-up position. The procedure shall be repeated to determine the third- place team.)

 

The following tie-breaking procedures shall be applied and all regular-season games, both region and non-region, shall count (After each of the following steps have been applied, item A above shall be applied.):

 

1. The team with the greatest number of victories.

2. The team who has the greatest number of victories over teams winning 50 percent or more of their games.

3. The team whose opponents have earned the most victories.

4. The team whose opponents have received fewer defeats.

5. The team who has the greatest number of victories over teams in its own class.

6. Ten yard line overtime procedure at neutral site Monday night at 7:30 P.M.

 

 

Now, the wildcard selection will be a little different to determine teams:

 

 

Tier 1

 

1. Head to Head (If applicable)

2. The team with the greatest number of victories.

3. The team who has the greatest number of victories over teams winning 50 percent or more of their games.

4. The team whose opponents have earned the most victories.

5. The team whose opponents have received fewer defeats.

6. Total wins by the opponents of teams defeated.

 

Tier 2

 

7. The team with the greatest number of victories over teams in their class.

8. The team who has the greatest number of victories over teams in their class winning 50 percent or more of their games.

9. The team whose teams in their class have earned the most victories.

10. The team whose teams in their class have received fewer defeats.

11. Total wins by the opponents of teams in their class of teams defeated.

 

Tier 3

 

12. The team with the greatest number of victories over teams in higher classification than teams in their class.

13. The team who has the greatest number of victories over teams in a higher classification than teams in their class winning 50 percent or more of their games.

14. The team whose opponents in classes higher than teams in their class have earned the most victories.

15. The team whose opponents in classes higher than teams in their class have received fewer defeats.

16. Total wins by the opponents of teams in classes higher than teams in their class teams defeated.

 

Tier 4

 

Coin Toss

[ELA]

Thanks for helping me out with this... I think Silverpie, Indian, and several other old-timers on coachT will spend hours dissecting your numbers here to help us all understand the new plan. Again, thanks for the help! You try and keep those boys straight up their in TSSAA-LAND and up on the Mountain!

[pressman]

It's sad, but it's certainly not surprising. In Tennessee, competition is way down on the priority list....well behind things like "feeling good about ourselves" and "making sure everyone is awarded a ribbon."

 

It's really too bad for schools like yours. It must be a rude awakening for a guy like Coach Rector, who obviously values competition and playing "the best" and proving he's got the best. He's the type of guy who truly wants to play anyone, anywhere. That makes him a real fish out of water in Tennessee.

 

When no 4A or 5A would appear in the clinic bowl in 2005 to face MBA in a game whose proceeds went to charity, MBA was forced to play Byrnes from SC. Of course, we would have been within our rights to back out of the game, which was supposed to be an intra-Tennessee game, but we played anyways, were completely outclassed, and got clobbered. Getting clobbered was (imo at least) a lot better than not even trying. But again, we're unique, like Ravenwood, in that regard.

 

 

 

Here we go again (and I will bite)...DII is unique and you make that choice by allowing financial aid. You don't need to rehash the whole privates vs. open zone schools for me either, because although there is a case to be made that open zone schools have privileges, it is usually relegated to a tighter geographic spectrum. Here's where I might surprise you...I have no problem with the MBAs, BAs, Ensworth, and other DII programs because they are forthright in playing within the constistutes of divison II (they play other teams that provide assistance)...but I heard an earlier argument about cost in reference to longer road trips...you guys make some valid points at times but don't go down that road in trying to convince the throng that you don't have the money to travel...that is demeaning my intelligence (this was in reference to another poster). Again, I am okay with the whole thing until you say that we are "not trying" because we choose not to play. We have an obligation to our kids to play the competition within our regions, our rivals outside the region, and if there are slots remaining then it makes sense to play a team that you are capable of beating in case of overall record coming into a tiebreaker scenario (and it does happen quite often). I, for one, would place common sense into your earlier statement. It is better to provide your kids the best opportunity to experience a win, rather than get clobbered (which is better than not trying, but I will take option 1 any time I am given it).

[silverpie]

One other point about the new tiebreak system--any teams from outside Division I (that means both Division II schools and those from out of state) are treated as in the class where they would fall under the D1 plan.