Private Schools are hurting Public Schools

[countrypk]

Matthew 6:5-8

 

 

So public prayer is always inappropriate?

 

If you've identified yourself as a hypocrite, you should pray in private however the more appropriate verse might be 1 Thessalonians 5:17.

[fiftyfifty]

So public prayer is always inappropriate?

 

If you've identified yourself as a hypocrite, you should pray in private however the more appropriate verse might be 1 Thessalonians 5:17.

 

Country, you have given a classic example of why school led prayer is not proper or impossible to achieve. You have quoted scripture, but incorrectly in my opinion. Now is your opinion better than mine, who would determine the answer to this question. Would you or me or who is in charge at a particular school. Then we are left with the in charge person's opinion of what is right and just. It just won't work. By the way, some of the most holy people that I have met in my life from all over the world go and pray in private each and every day. They also pray in public in their church. PS If you read the gospels, it has many passages about the Lord himself going off alone to pray, does that make him a hypocrite. You see what happens in a public forum when you try to find common ground and not offend anyone. It is impossible to do. Now if you are one that don't care who he offends in the name of the Lord, I can find several periods in history that would agree with you and people were routinely murdered in the name of the Lord. As much as you and me might like Christianity to be the only religion practiced in this world, that is not the case. The true example of Christianity is tolerance and respect to those with different beliefs, this cannot be achieved in a public school setting. By the way I am not speaking only of other faiths besides Christianity, but divisions within Christianity itself and there are many. Whose feelings do we ignore? /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

[youthsportsPIX]

I pay extra for my kids to attend a small Christian based private school for many reasons. Some of them include getting a faith based education, small class room size, I know almost every kid in the school and their parents, and the security of knowing they are safer. It is unfortunate I have to pay double for me kids education. I pay Taxes for all of the public schools kids and then I pay much more for private school tuition. If we ever get back to local community based schools, then I would consider going back to a public school.

[countrypk]

Country, you have given a classic example of why school led prayer is not proper or impossible to achieve. You have quoted scripture, but incorrectly in my opinion. Now is your opinion better than mine, who would determine the answer to this question. Would you or me or who is in charge at a particular school. Then we are left with the in charge person's opinion of what is right and just. It just won't work. By the way, some of the most holy people that I have met in my life from all over the world go and pray in private each and every day. They also pray in public in their church. PS If you read the gospels, it has many passages about the Lord himself going off alone to pray, does that make him a hypocrite. You see what happens in a public forum when you try to find common ground and not offend anyone. It is impossible to do. Now if you are one that don't care who he offends in the name of the Lord, I can find several periods in history that would agree with you and people were routinely murdered in the name of the Lord. As much as you and me might like Christianity to be the only religion practiced in this world, that is not the case. The true example of Christianity is tolerance and respect to those with different beliefs, this cannot be achieved in a public school setting. By the way I am not speaking only of other faiths besides Christianity, but divisions within Christianity itself and there are many. Whose feelings do we ignore? /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

 

 

You're certainly correct about public prayer's propensity to create violence. Ever since its introduction into our public school system violence, mayhem and intolerance have reigned. If we can only remove it so as to avoid any kind of acknowlegement of a common deity, maybe our public classrooms will once again enjoy the tranquility and good behavior that once defined many of our public schools prior to the insidious introduction of daily prayer. I certainly can see how tolerating public displays of faith would be a burden on the vast majority of the population who identify themselves as atheist and agnostics. We might adopt our United States Congress' prohibition of any kind of communal prayer prior to each session so as not to horribly offend those members and their constitutional right never to have to hear anyone in public acknowlege a higher power. Thank whatever that our founding persons never sought whatever's guidance as they created our constitution.

[fiftyfifty]

You're certainly correct about public prayer's propensity to create violence. Ever since its introduction into our public school system violence, mayhem and intolerance have reigned. If we can only remove it so as to avoid any kind of acknowlegement of a common deity, maybe our public classrooms will once again enjoy the tranquility and good behavior that once defined many of our public schools prior to the insidious introduction of daily prayer. I certainly can see how tolerating public displays of faith would be a burden on the vast majority of the population who identify themselves as atheist and agnostics. We might adopt our United States Congress' prohibition of any kind of communal prayer prior to each session so as not to horribly offend those members and their constitutional right never to have to hear anyone in public acknowlege a higher power. Thank whatever that our founding persons never sought whatever's guidance as they created our constitution.

 

I never said anything about public prayer creating violence. That is your perception of what I said. I did say what form would it take. Who would decide this? Would the Baptists lead the way, or perhaps the Methodists, or the Jewish faith or the Catholics, who would decide this. Who would absolutely make certain that any child who felt pressured to lead the class in prayer, but didn't want to do it, would not be ridiculed for a private, personal decision that has now been made public. Who would prevent the Baptist children from teasing the Catholic children about such nonsense as worshipping statues. Who would stop the Catholic children from teasing the Baptist children about some false aspect of their faith. The answer is no one would. I don't ever remember in all my years of schooling anyone telling me that I couldn't pray in private. But I have many friends who attended public school that were told not to force their form of prayer on another at school due to students hurting other students feelings. I have friends who had the most hateful, shameful things said to them because they were of a certain faith. That is not what prayer is about and I believe the courts are right in their ruling on this matter. It seems that some want a nationalized religion, but if you really think about it, are you sure you want that. As a Christian if you are, you would know that the one thing the Lord never did was force his beliefs on anyone at anytime. Its very interesting that you mention the founding fathers of this country. One of the main reasons they came to America was to escape the yolk of state sanctioned religion. They wanted to be able to worship freely. This notion is much different than some sort of mandatory prayer in schools, that would be a return in a sense to the very thing the founding fathers were trying to escape from. /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

[youthsportsPIX]

I never said anything about public prayer creating violence. That is your perception of what I said. I did say what form would it take. Who would decide this? Would the Baptists lead the way, or perhaps the Methodists, or the Jewish faith or the Catholics, who would decide this. Who would absolutely make certain that any child who felt pressured to lead the class in prayer, but didn't want to do it, would not be ridiculed for a private, personal decision that has now been made public. Who would prevent the Baptist children from teasing the Catholic children about such nonsense as worshipping statues. Who would stop the Catholic children from teasing the Baptist children about some false aspect of their faith. The answer is no one would. I don't ever remember in all my years of schooling anyone telling me that I couldn't pray in private. But I have many friends who attended public school that were told not to force their form of prayer on another at school due to students hurting other students feelings. I have friends who had the most hateful, shameful things said to them because they were of a certain faith. That is not what prayer is about and I believe the courts are right in their ruling on this matter. It seems that some want a nationalized religion, but if you really think about it, are you sure you want that. As a Christian if you are, you would know that the one thing the Lord never did was force his beliefs on anyone at anytime. Its very interesting that you mention the founding fathers of this country. One of the main reasons they came to America was to escape the yolk of state sanctioned religion. They wanted to be able to worship freely. This notion is much different than some sort of mandatory prayer in schools, that would be a return in a sense to the very thing the founding fathers were trying to escape from. /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

 

 

Let me add my2cents. Spiritual influences were present within our educational systems for most of our nation's history. In his "History of the United States", Noah Webster wrote: ???If a republican form of government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws.???

 

Moral, God-fearing citizens are essential to the common good of the country. John Adams wrote, ???We have no government armed with powers capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our constitution as a whale goes through a net.??? How can the United States encourage students to become moral citizens, when it bans God from its public school classrooms? Pope Leo XIII wrote that ?????¦ civil society must acknowledge God as its Founder and Parent, and must obey and reverence His power and authority. Justice therefore forbids, and reason itself forbids, the State to be godless.??? Pope Pius XI, in his encyclical on Christ the King entitled, Quas Primas, wrote, ???When once man recognize, both in private and in public life, that Christ is King, society will at last receive the great blessings of real liberty, well-ordered discipline, peace and harmony.??? He also emphasized that the whole of mankind (including the State) is subject to the power of Jesus Christ: ???Nor is there any difference in this matter between the individual and the family or the State; for all men, whether collectively or individually, are under the dominion of Christ. In Him is the salvation of the individual, in Him is the salvation of society.???

 

In 1984 Ronald Reagan said, ???The time has come to turn back to God and reassert our trust in Him for the healing of America. This means that all of us who acknowledge a belief in our Judeo-Christian heritage must reaffirm that belief and join forces to reclaim those great principles.??? Speaking of the Equal Access Act (allowing students who wished to conduct religious meetings the same access to schools as other groups), Reagan said, ???In 1962, the Supreme Court banned prayers. In 1963, the Court banned the reading of the Bible. ... We had to pass a special law to allow student prayer groups the same access to schoolrooms that a Young Marxist Society enjoys. ... Without God there is a coarsening of the society. ... If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under."

[countrypk]

I never said anything about public prayer creating violence. That is your perception of what I said. I did say what form would it take. Who would decide this? Would the Baptists lead the way, or perhaps the Methodists, or the Jewish faith or the Catholics, who would decide this. Who would absolutely make certain that any child who felt pressured to lead the class in prayer, but didn't want to do it, would not be ridiculed for a private, personal decision that has now been made public. Who would prevent the Baptist children from teasing the Catholic children about such nonsense as worshipping statues. Who would stop the Catholic children from teasing the Baptist children about some false aspect of their faith. The answer is no one would. I don't ever remember in all my years of schooling anyone telling me that I couldn't pray in private. But I have many friends who attended public school that were told not to force their form of prayer on another at school due to students hurting other students feelings. I have friends who had the most hateful, shameful things said to them because they were of a certain faith. That is not what prayer is about and I believe the courts are right in their ruling on this matter. It seems that some want a nationalized religion, but if you really think about it, are you sure you want that. As a Christian if you are, you would know that the one thing the Lord never did was force his beliefs on anyone at anytime. Its very interesting that you mention the founding fathers of this country. One of the main reasons they came to America was to escape the yolk of state sanctioned religion. They wanted to be able to worship freely. This notion is much different than some sort of mandatory prayer in schools, that would be a return in a sense to the very thing the founding fathers were trying to escape from. /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

 

I thought (seriously) we were speaking of prayers led by student volunteers at football games. I don't support mandatory prayers in the schools room. We now have proof of just how dangerous they were in leading our public school youth astray prior to their prohibition.

 

It's ironic you mention the founding fathers. They were made up of devout orthodox Christians (John Adams), Deists (Ben Franklin), less devout Christians (George Washington) and everything in between but still regularly and publicly invoked the name of God in their deliberations. Apparently, they were a heck of a lot more tolerant than we imagine ourselves today.

[youthsportsPIX]

WOW This topic of how much Private Schools are hurting Public Schools has morphed into a whole different animal:)

[itzme]

So public prayer is always inappropriate?

 

If you've identified yourself as a hypocrite, you should pray in private however the more appropriate verse might be 1 Thessalonians 5:17.

 

No, not at all. Corporate prayer in a church is very important. I am a hypocrite in many areas, and way too often. I strive to improve in that. I pray a lot, and work towards continually, but not so much in public. It surely doesn't bother me when others do so.

 

BTW...I always liked Jesus better than Paul! /biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />

 

BTW deux...I don't think independent schools hurt government schools in any way.

[fiftyfifty]

Let me add my2cents. Spiritual influences were present within our educational systems for most of our nation's history. In his "History of the United States", Noah Webster wrote: ???If a republican form of government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws.???

 

Moral, God-fearing citizens are essential to the common good of the country. John Adams wrote, ???We have no government armed with powers capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our constitution as a whale goes through a net.??? How can the United States encourage students to become moral citizens, when it bans God from its public school classrooms? Pope Leo XIII wrote that ?????¦ civil society must acknowledge God as its Founder and Parent, and must obey and reverence His power and authority. Justice therefore forbids, and reason itself forbids, the State to be godless.??? Pope Pius XI, in his encyclical on Christ the King entitled, Quas Primas, wrote, ???When once man recognize, both in private and in public life, that Christ is King, society will at last receive the great blessings of real liberty, well-ordered discipline, peace and harmony.??? He also emphasized that the whole of mankind (including the State) is subject to the power of Jesus Christ: ???Nor is there any difference in this matter between the individual and the family or the State; for all men, whether collectively or individually, are under the dominion of Christ. In Him is the salvation of the individual, in Him is the salvation of society.???

 

In 1984 Ronald Reagan said, ???The time has come to turn back to God and reassert our trust in Him for the healing of America. This means that all of us who acknowledge a belief in our Judeo-Christian heritage must reaffirm that belief and join forces to reclaim those great principles.??? Speaking of the Equal Access Act (allowing students who wished to conduct religious meetings the same access to schools as other groups), Reagan said, ???In 1962, the Supreme Court banned prayers. In 1963, the Court banned the reading of the Bible. ... We had to pass a special law to allow student prayer groups the same access to schoolrooms that a Young Marxist Society enjoys. ... Without God there is a coarsening of the society. ... If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under."

 

Nobody wants a society without God. Of course not. Pope Leo XIII is exactly correct in his accertion about society and God. We are a nation filled with churches, thousands and thousands of them. But this time the supreme court got it right. What Bible would you read, King James, New American, or one of the dozens of others. Which one would be picked? And who would pick it. Which students would just have to bite the bullet and stand in silence when they are being offended by the kind of prayer or the words used. If you invoke the name of Jesus, do you ignore the Hindu, or Muslin or the children who follow the Jewish faith or dozens of others all in the same classroom. Is that the format to promote any particular kind of faith? I say no. There is no acceptable method to achieve the proper respect for all people and not offend anyone. At church, you are free to get up and leave if you don't wish to be there. But school kids have to be there. PS. The United States has more churches than Quaker has oats. Thats not the problem, the problem is applying to daily living the messages that are received in these churches. The civil law has nothing whatsoever to do with the success or failure of people to do this. In many countries where religion is banned, I have witnessed a spiritual force that is rarely seen. PSS I could not disagree more with the notion that prosperity is linked to good and moral men being elected to office. Take a look at our country, would you call some of our leaders in the last few years, good and moral. But we still are the richest nation on earth. So much for the theory that in order to have prosperity, you must have moral leaders. Some of the poorest countries in the world could hardly be called non-spiritual, in fact in many cases, it would be just the opposite. In fact if you look closely, countries that have great poverty, inhuman treatment, etc often are the most spiritual people you can find anywhere. Prosperity does not equal holiness. Many of the points in your post are good points, but they don't build a case for mandatory school sanctioned prayer. In countries where religion is frowned upon, persecution occurs, the numbers of young people studying for the ministry is through the roof. In the countries where there is great prosperity, its much more difficult to find young people who wish to go into ministry. Blessings to all no matter what your opinion or faith is. /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

[MVM]

WOW This topic of how much Private Schools are hurting Public Schools has morphed into a whole different animal:)

 

I'm with you, Brother.

[Baldcoach]

Nobody wants a society without God. Of course not. Pope Leo XIII is exactly correct in his accertion about society and God. We are a nation filled with churches, thousands and thousands of them. But this time the supreme court got it right. What Bible would you read, King James, New American, or one of the dozens of others. Which one would be picked? And who would pick it. Which students would just have to bite the bullet and stand in silence when they are being offended by the kind of prayer or the words used. If you invoke the name of Jesus, do you ignore the Hindu, or Muslin or the children who follow the Jewish faith or dozens of others all in the same classroom. Is that the format to promote any particular kind of faith? I say no. There is no acceptable method to achieve the proper respect for all people and not offend anyone. At church, you are free to get up and leave if you don't wish to be there. But school kids have to be there. PS. The United States has more churches than Quaker has oats. Thats not the problem, the problem is applying to daily living the messages that are received in these churches. The civil law has nothing whatsoever to do with the success or failure of people to do this. In many countries where religion is banned, I have witnessed a spiritual force that is rarely seen. PSS I could not disagree more with the notion that prosperity is linked to good and moral men being elected to office. Take a look at our country, would you call some of our leaders in the last few years, good and moral. But we still are the richest nation on earth. So much for the theory that in order to have prosperity, you must have moral leaders. Some of the poorest countries in the world could hardly be called non-spiritual, in fact in many cases, it would be just the opposite. In fact if you look closely, countries that have great poverty, inhuman treatment, etc often are the most spiritual people you can find anywhere. Prosperity does not equal holiness. Many of the points in your post are good points, but they don't build a case for mandatory school sanctioned prayer. In countries where religion is frowned upon, persecution occurs, the numbers of young people studying for the ministry is through the roof. In the countries where there is great prosperity, its much more difficult to find young people who wish to go into ministry. Blessings to all no matter what your opinion or faith is. /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

 

 

 

bulldog,

 

You seem to want to set up a straw man then knock it down. No one wants 'mandatory' school prayer. What we want is voluntary prayer. If a public school teacher wants to pray in class they should be able to do it. Imho it is a constitutionally protected right 2 ways...Freedom of Speech AND Freedom of Religion. But because of a mis-application of the seperation of Church and State clause, we have stripped those freedoms. For 100 years public ed in the US allowed religious interactions with the classroom, only in the last 40 years or so have they been forcibly removed. And removed to the point that any mention of personal faith or practice of it can get a teacher fired, especially in the larger metro systems where the community isn't uniformly religious. Which brings us back to why the small religious privates formed up in the first place...they almost universally began in large metro areas about the time that the community schools were being torn down and replaced with mega-schools and religion was being made illegal in the classroom.

 

I don't get the blessings thingy??

 

note: Seperation of Church and State was to prevent a state sponsored denomination or a theocracy from developing, not to prevent public religious expression. It was included because people fled to America to get away from the religious persecutions of the European religious states...if you weren't Dutch Reformed in Holland they could arrest you...if you weren't Catholic in Italy they could arrest you...etc.