Probation for Memphis Private

[fiftyfifty]

Where do your stats come from?

 

This was reported on the news of one of the three major networks, I forget which one. It is true Hargis whether you like it or not. I am getting tired of your digging remarks towards me. Please don't respond back feigning innocence, because I simply don't believe you. You don't know me from Adam, and you certainly don't know my status in education or anything else. Therefore how can you make an arrogant statement saying I likely don't know something. Many people believe that it is you that likely don't know what you are talking about much of the time especially in volleyball. Do we now have to listen to all this diatribe on the basketball thread as well. /wacko.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":wacko:" border="0" alt="wacko.gif" />

 

PS I don't respond on your timesheet since I have other things to do besides posting on Coach T.

[PHargis]

This was reported on the news of one of the three major networks, I forget which one. It is true Hargis whether you like it or not. I am getting tired of your digging remarks towards me. Please don't respond back feigning innocence, because I simply don't believe you. You don't know me from Adam, and you certainly don't know my status in education or anything else. Therefore how can you make an arrogant statement saying I likely don't know something. Many people believe that it is you that likely don't know what you are talking about much of the time especially in volleyball. Do we now have to listen to all this diatribe on the basketball thread as well. /wacko.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":wacko:" border="0" alt="wacko.gif" />

 

PS I don't respond on your timesheet since I have other things to do besides posting on Coach T.

Stbulldog, you ran into other posters disagreeing with you and when you posted, I was trying to understand your viewpoint and who you might be speaking for. A position was what i was looking for and you explained it to me. By the way I did not bring this up and I was surprised to even see you posting on this site. I do post on Basketball and have done it since 2002 and am planning on doing it for another 10 years, I hope. I really don't expect you to respond. Best of luck.

[apsugogovs]

It is amazing that people on here continually try to compare private and public education, it is even more ridiculous to say that private is superior to public education or vice-versa. One is not better than the other and trying to compare the two is a very difficult. They are two different institutions that are in the bussiness of educating children. It would be like comparing the trucking industry with the Rail industry. Both move goods across the U.S. but that is about the only thing they have in common. Each industry has it's advantages and disadvantages. Its up to the supplier to best decide which mode of transportation to use. It could be cost, it could be that the item can't be transported by rail, there are all sorts of variables that I could use but some goods or materials are better suited for rail and some are more suited for trucking. It is the same for students. Some are suited for private and some are suited for public. Obviously within each industry, it is easier and better suited to compare the differences and superiority within. Some trucking institutions may be better than others and it would be fair to judge them accordingly. Same with education, it would serve both institutions to compare private schools with other private schools, while comparing public schools with other public schools in order to advance the education process of each institution. Lets try to keep things in perspective and realize that having both institutions provide competition and choices for parents. Its a choice of how you get there, some arrive by train while others arrive by trucks. Either way the path is a bumpy one, each with its own problems and benefits.

[PHargis]

It is amazing that people on here continually try to compare private and public education, it is even more ridiculous to say that private is superior to public education or vice-versa. One is not better than the other and trying to compare the two is a very difficult. They are two different institutions that are in the bussiness of educating children. It would be like comparing the trucking industry with the Rail industry. Both move goods across the U.S. but that is about the only thing they have in common. Each industry has it's advantages and disadvantages. Its up to the supplier to best decide which mode of transportation to use. It could be cost, it could be that the item can't be transported by rail, there are all sorts of variables that I could use but some goods or materials are better suited for rail and some are more suited for trucking. It is the same for students. Some are suited for private and some are suited for public. Obviously within each industry, it is easier and better suited to compare the differences and superiority within. Some trucking institutions may be better than others and it would be fair to judge them accordingly. Same with education, it would serve both institutions to compare private schools with other private schools, while comparing public schools with other public schools in order to advance the education process of each institution. Lets try to keep things in perspective and realize that having both institutions provide competition and choices for parents. Its a choice of how you get there, some arrive by train while others arrive by trucks. Either way the path is a bumpy one, each with its own problems and benefits.

Yours is a logical post and one which i do agree with almost 100%. I'm afraid in trying to find some way to allow competiton between two schools in a State Tournament Atmosphere, one a DivI and another a DivII, so many issues are out there, it will not be possible. I guess when athletics get involved in anything, it will be hard to get agreement. Your examples are those which I relate to and while they are a little more complicated than that, they are close. Good Post.

[fiftyfifty]

It is amazing that people on here continually try to compare private and public education, it is even more ridiculous to say that private is superior to public education or vice-versa. One is not better than the other and trying to compare the two is a very difficult. They are two different institutions that are in the bussiness of educating children. It would be like comparing the trucking industry with the Rail industry. Both move goods across the U.S. but that is about the only thing they have in common. Each industry has it's advantages and disadvantages. Its up to the supplier to best decide which mode of transportation to use. It could be cost, it could be that the item can't be transported by rail, there are all sorts of variables that I could use but some goods or materials are better suited for rail and some are more suited for trucking. It is the same for students. Some are suited for private and some are suited for public. Obviously within each industry, it is easier and better suited to compare the differences and superiority within. Some trucking institutions may be better than others and it would be fair to judge them accordingly. Same with education, it would serve both institutions to compare private schools with other private schools, while comparing public schools with other public schools in order to advance the education process of each institution. Lets try to keep things in perspective and realize that having both institutions provide competition and choices for parents. Its a choice of how you get there, some arrive by train while others arrive by trucks. Either way the path is a bumpy one, each with its own problems and benefits.

 

This is interesting post. To use your words, its up to the supplier to decide what is best. I assume that you mean that a parent or student when they make a choice, this indicates what is the best of private or public. Or you mean that comparing private and public can't be done, simply not true. There are many stats, test scores, percentage of students going on to college and various other ways to compare the quality of education. This is beating a dead horse, private education is superior to public education no question about it. Mr. Hargis likes your post because you are basically stating that one is not superior to the other. He is a public school supporter, so thats why he likes your post. I neither like nor dislike what you post, I simply diagree and have the stats which are known in all education circles which one provides the superior education. I posted earlier that in a recent poll of public school teachers, a full 33% percent choose to send their children to private schools. This is a higher percentage than the general population. There has to be a reason in an educators mind for them to do this. To use your analogy of business, some people buy cars made in Detroit and therefore think they are the best. But we all know thats baloney as is using a business analogy in speaking of private vs public education. /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> PS this is private-public thread, so we discuss private public issues.

[PHargis]

It is amazing that people on here continually try to compare private and public education, it is even more ridiculous to say that private is superior to public education or vice-versa. One is not better than the other and trying to compare the two is a very difficult. They are two different institutions that are in the bussiness of educating children. It would be like comparing the trucking industry with the Rail industry. Both move goods across the U.S. but that is about the only thing they have in common. Each industry has it's advantages and disadvantages. Its up to the supplier to best decide which mode of transportation to use. It could be cost, it could be that the item can't be transported by rail, there are all sorts of variables that I could use but some goods or materials are better suited for rail and some are more suited for trucking. It is the same for students. Some are suited for private and some are suited for public. Obviously within each industry, it is easier and better suited to compare the differences and superiority within. Some trucking institutions may be better than others and it would be fair to judge them accordingly. Same with education, it would serve both institutions to compare private schools with other private schools, while comparing public schools with other public schools in order to advance the education process of each institution. Lets try to keep things in perspective and realize that having both institutions provide competition and choices for parents. Its a choice of how you get there, some arrive by train while others arrive by trucks. Either way the path is a bumpy one, each with its own problems and benefits.

APSUG, Bulldog likes to conveniently put people in a catagory as she has done you. For the record, I attended both Public and Private and am happy I have. Both were great experiences. My private certainly was memorable. Public and Private are not even my issues. What is the issue is understanding the other persons viewpoint so that some conclusion can be drawn. Its hard to MAKE someone accept your viewpoint. I've now gotten something out of both of these posters thoughts. I think I am better for it.iu

[fiftyfifty]

APSUG, Bulldog likes to conveniently put people in a catagory as she has done you. For the record, I attended both Public and Private and am happy I have. Both were great experiences. My private certainly was memorable. Public and Private are not even my issues. What is the issue is understanding the other persons viewpoint so that some conclusion can be drawn. Its hard to MAKE someone accept your viewpoint. I've now gotten something out of both of these posters thoughts. I think I am better for it.iu

 

I can only draw conclusions from you posts. I think you lean toward public schools because you have relatives that attend school at Siegal. I don't understand you statement at all about drawing a conclusion. Your goal stated or not is for the two Divisions to reunite into one big happy family. I am all for it as long as financial aid is untouched as many peiple need it. The TSSAA is never going to place Div II schools back in Div I unless financial aid is not given to athletes. Many private schools are not going to discriminate against athletes as to financial aid. So its not going to happen, that all there is to it. I will say it again, you would not want privates in the same divisions with your favorite public schools (volleyball) and get your hat handed to you. By the way, what private did you have the privledge of attending? Or is that confidential the way it was when someone tried to meet you at state. I too am better for getting something out of your thoughts. While I think it is great that you attended both public and private, I do wonder why you attended both. But that has nothing whatsoever to do with comparing public vs private education, sports, etc. There is an old saying that I know you know, (There is an exception to every rule) I will give you the last word, so post away. /biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />

[fiftyfifty]

BD, you didn't answer the question but I don't think you would know because you don't keep up with things like those and not expected to. But it is a valid question and leads to motivation which you would be interested in. The situation at KC is another recent situation on this site which was strange but caused KC to wind up with a record less than they earned. While this is a public school, this was a situation that was openly discussed and started as a rumor that was not true however the results were true. Comparisons between Private and Public violations are hard to compare but the main question is were they violations and the answer was obvious and people make mistakes and they likely will again and be in violation. Don't know what the answer above was to. My confidence, though, in the networks is pretty low if it is Television.

 

Mr. Hargis are you stating that KC which I assume is Knoxville Catholic is a public school. That seems to be the way your post reads, could you clarify. /biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />

[apsugogovs]

I neither like nor dislike what you post, I simply diagree and have the stats which are known in all education circles which one provides the superior education. I posted earlier that in a recent poll of public school teachers, a full 33% percent choose to send their children to private schools. This is a higher percentage than the general population. There has to be a reason in an educators mind for them to do this. To use your analogy of business, some people buy cars made in Detroit and therefore think they are the best. But we all know thats baloney as is using a business analogy in speaking of private vs public education. PS this is private-public thread, so we discuss private public issues.

 

 

I am not asking you to agree or not agree, what I am trying to convey is that to try to compare public and private is like comparing apples and oranges. They are not the same, both are fruit but thats about it. As have stated before, you can compare Golden delicious with Roman Beauty apples. But to compare florida oranges with these types of apples would be irrevalent. All your data and stats that you have that say private is superior to public are irrevalent. Its like me saying the best apples are florida oranges. If you want to compare lets say Baylor and Chattanooga Christian, or MBA with Ezell Harding, I think you can look at the data and stats to decide which school is better. But to compare Hillsboro and MBA would be skewed because they are two different kinds of educational institutions. One school educates everyone while the other only takes the smartest and brightest students. Obviously test scores would be skewed. As for the reason public school teachers send their children to private schools is obvious. Students that have teachers as parents are usually better students than the average student therefore going to a private school that only takes the best would be a viable option. But to infer that this indicates that private is better than public would be a stretch. Studies have showed that students who are brought up in a culture where college education is valued, usually do better in school no matter what type of school they attend. If you look at higher education where there are entrance exams in both private and public institutions, you would see that there is not much difference between the two. We all have opinions, but lets not confuse fact with fiction. Here is a fact that you may be interested in. There are more students in the public arena that score 30 and above on the ACT than do private school students. To use this fact to say public is superior would be irrevalent considering there are more public students taking the ACT than Private. Stats and facts don't always tell the whole story, so be careful when stating facts to make a point. I realize that I am not going to change your mind but hopefully it may change others.

[Baldcoach]

I am not asking you to agree or not agree, what I am trying to convey is that to try to compare public and private is like comparing apples and oranges. They are not the same, both are fruit but thats about it. As have stated before, you can compare Golden delicious with Roman Beauty apples. But to compare florida oranges with these types of apples would be irrevalent. All your data and stats that you have that say private is superior to public are irrevalent. Its like me saying the best apples are florida oranges. If you want to compare lets say Baylor and Chattanooga Christian, or MBA with Ezell Harding, I think you can look at the data and stats to decide which school is better. But to compare Hillsboro and MBA would be skewed because they are two different kinds of educational institutions. One school educates everyone while the other only takes the smartest and brightest students. Obviously test scores would be skewed. As for the reason public school teachers send their children to private schools is obvious. Students that have teachers as parents are usually better students than the average student therefore going to a private school that only takes the best would be a viable option. But to infer that this indicates that private is better than public would be a stretch. Studies have showed that students who are brought up in a culture where college education is valued, usually do better in school no matter what type of school they attend. If you look at higher education where there are entrance exams in both private and public institutions, you would see that there is not much difference between the two. We all have opinions, but lets not confuse fact with fiction. Here is a fact that you may be interested in. There are more students in the public arena that score 30 and above on the ACT than do private school students. To use this fact to say public is superior would be irrevalent considering there are more public students taking the ACT than Private. Stats and facts don't always tell the whole story, so be careful when stating facts to make a point. I realize that I am not going to change your mind but hopefully it may change others.

 

 

Actually you make a poor generalization in your argument based on a faulty assumption...that all privates are similar. In fact, the small religious privates DONT take only the good students...they usually have the same good/poor student ratio as the suburban publics...because their mission is not to be elite, but to provide a good, Christian education to as many people as they can, elite student or not. Thus, they don't have a selective admissions process like the elite privates...a fundamental flaw in the arguments of those who propose a split because privates are like privates and publics like publics.

 

In point of fact the small privates are more like small publics in their student makeup and community feeling...that is a big reason many parents choose them...they are the only place that is possible in urban areas. So perhaps lumping publics and privates into 2 distinct categories is a bit simplistic. Large, urban publics are fundamentally different than most small publics (which are usually rural and community centered), which are somewhat similar to small privates, which are fundamentally different than elite privates.

[PHargis]

I can only draw conclusions from you posts. I think you lean toward public schools because you have relatives that attend school at Siegal. I don't understand you statement at all about drawing a conclusion. Your goal stated or not is for the two Divisions to reunite into one big happy family. I am all for it as long as financial aid is untouched as many peiple need it. The TSSAA is never going to place Div II schools back in Div I unless financial aid is not given to athletes. Many private schools are not going to discriminate against athletes as to financial aid. So its not going to happen, that all there is to it. I will say it again, you would not want privates in the same divisions with your favorite public schools (volleyball) and get your hat handed to you. By the way, what private did you have the privledge of attending? Or is that confidential the way it was when someone tried to meet you at state. I too am better for getting something out of your thoughts. While I think it is great that you attended both public and private, I do wonder why you attended both. But that has nothing whatsoever to do with comparing public vs private education, sports, etc. There is an old saying that I know you know, (There is an exception to every rule) I will give you the last word, so post away. /biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />

Interesting conclusions and many cannot only be further from the truth of the matter. Maybe thats the reason i couldn't understand your point of view and the way you were assuming to so many things you were and coming back in a very idealistic manner with all of the answers but not trying to find some ways to do it. I know it can be done becasue a number of years back, that was the way school systems operated. so what's the difference now. They were the arguments I was making. If you think seperation is the answer, that's been tried and the conclusion was it did not work. Realistically, I don't think even you think it worked. To set apart the privates and make a separation there, grouping all privates together is not even close to being anywhere close to a comparison and that is why I asked the question.

Now, you must b e HIGH up the food chain to say any organization is never going to do this or that. You seem to act like you have first hand knowledge, it is a refutable conclusion and all privates will follow your thought. If that's the case, why did so many privates stay in DivI? Now I know why they left. Because of a ridiculous multiplier and I am wondering why they stayed to start with. My conclusion it is wrong. I may be wrong but your assumptions, and they are your individual assumptions, are fallacous and bear an old time feeling to maintain something that might not totally be the answer.

I did say totally and do not want to be misunderstood because much of it likely is certainly not bad.

So now you get back to athletics. Are we saying athletics is the reason for all of this? Is now your reasoning a sport or two or more? Is your competitive juices so strong that you think it would bother anyone to be beaten by a superior team? if that is so you or I will never know at a State Tournament. So now in great debate fashion, if you run out of points, go after the other person. Since your questions are not based on a correct assumption, are not correct and really not related to this discussion, its not worth taking up the time to even consider answering. '

But if the comments you are making are this. Some private schools were formed for faith based reasons by people who felt their kids would get the right religious and academic training, meet the right peer group, likely be associated with those who might be associated with the rest of their life and for them personally be able to associate with those same people as adults, They are valid and important reasons. Those things have nothing to do with competitive juices of athletics but invariablly roll over in to the scene.

Now my next comment has something to do with a comment you have made that "If a school you know about uses aid to recruit athletes, you would go to the Bishop because that was not the mission of aid to students". Will the Bishop get involved in all infractions that Catholic Schools might have. I would hope you would excuse the quote or correct it if I have misquoted your statement. If that is your statement, I would agree with you and that is the premises of this whole situation as I understand it. The question is what is reasonable and what can both points of view accept. You have said that the basic tenet is true and in its simplistic form is true but you cannot say all are recognizing it. And you can reread what you posted and I thought it was a reasonable post. Evidently you are right but IMO you not very far off from being right that 100% will try to conform to it, I would hope. The question now is instead of saying tough luck, nothing will ever work, get those out of the discussion that say that and get some postiive thoughts to see if it can. They are not there now. And the reason they are not likely is someone is bankrolling both sides of the issues. Certainly if enough are bankrolling it and will continue to do so, no matter the cost, the stalemate will continue to exist. Reasonable people can make reasonable judgements and hold tight on tenants of right they want used.

So now we ARE back to the real reason of disagreement, athletics. no one in their reasonable mind will disagree over the right to form a school on the basis I outlined and, if someone wants to bankroll a school on those basics, fine. If privates agree to an agreed way of handling athletics and it is reasonable, fine. If those who don't want to do it, and won't, how would you as adminsitrator handle it, realizing all schools have to be handled the same and large fines will be meted out and they will get larger and larger and larger. Who is paying for that?

Now, you are saying my positon is something my positon is not. A misunderstanding, likely. You are saying this is over a sport. A misunderstanding, likely. My understanding of your postiton is there is no give, at all. I can understand it but you do not have the final say in anything. You are a constituant. Your basic tenant is all right but thats where it stops. The impression is that this is the position but really anyone can do anything they like, which I think you would agree, is not the case. Reasonable people will do the right thing if you trust them.

I Have made this longer than i intended and if a response is needed fine and if not, fine. I have no ability to change anything or get anyone to change anything........... like you, only by discussion.

But, like you, I will continue to post on the matter and respect anyone who disagrees with me. I would hope discussions like these does nothing but make visable points of view and coirrects misunderstandings rather than just standing back and shouting at each other. IMO, the wrongs here, on both sides, have to do with things that have happened in the past. Its time to find a way to correct it and if there can't be a way, we tried. Nothing is inevitable except the obvious.

[countrypk]

Here's some stats from a couple of cities regarding where public teachers send their kids in an article by the commentator Clarence Page http://www.thetowntalk.com/article/2008112...INION/811210305

 

The real interesting question will be where OS Obama sends his girls to school in DC. After all, more is spent in DC per capita in public education than in any metropolitan area in the country. So, it just stands to reason that they have a dandy public education system because we all know that money is the answer for all public education's woes. /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" />

 

What a coincidence! Briarcrest girls have won 4 state championships in the last 10 years; none since 2005. They need to improve on some factor they were once good at.