TOP 10

[walkenvol]

SLY,

 

Maybe I've missed it in the past, but that was the first time I've seen it stated that the problem was limited to financial aid/recruiting only and that there were no personal past grudges inhibiting reunification. You yourself have repeatedly called for someone on this message board to offer up a reasonable compromise to bring D1/D2 together instead of just complaining about the split. I've tabled a proposal for a potential duel meet that addresses the stated problem and now you say give it a rest. Why not tell me what's wrong with the proposal or offer a counter? How about a dual meet under the pre-split rules of only 2 athletes on financial aid without restriction as to where they live? I remain confused as to why the repeated requests for silence on this issue which most agree is the 500 lb gorilla in TN HS wrestling.

[karelin]

Just wondering why it would be so important to attend while missing work.

[sly]

Walkenvol, If you are so passionate about this issue you need to contact Ronnie Carter/TSSAA and ask him for advice on how to achieve your goal for reunification. But by continuing on this board the same old arguments is just getting old. This format isn't the place that will make changes for TSSAA issues even if everyone on this board agrees on all issues. I do feel the main problem that you are having is accepting opposite view points on this issue and that's why you continue to beat this thing into the ground on this website. I suggest you take your efforts on this issue to the TSSAA were something could be done about it. Better yet, your schools administrators should be the ones lobbying for change. Maybe you can talk with your AD and see if he can get something going on this with TSSAA. But remember no matter if you like it or not there are those who are for the split for whatever reasons and you or I won't change their minds. To paraphrase what Legman has already said....if there are any deals to be cut it will be by the coaches and administrators and not the parents. So go tell your coach your plan and have him call the DI schools to work it all out. Sounds like a plan to me. Keep us posted on what your coach tells you.

 

 

Posted by walkenvol:

SLY,

 

Maybe I've missed it in the past, but that was the first time I've seen it stated that the problem was limited to financial aid/recruiting only and that there were no personal past grudges inhibiting reunification. You yourself have repeatedly called for someone on this message board to offer up a reasonable compromise to bring D1/D2 together instead of just complaining about the split. I've tabled a proposal for a potential duel meet that addresses the stated problem and now you say give it a rest. Why not tell me what's wrong with the proposal or offer a counter? How about a dual meet under the pre-split rules of only 2 athletes on financial aid without restriction as to where they live? I remain confused as to why the repeated requests for silence on this issue which most agree is the 500 lb gorilla in TN HS wrestling.

[sly]

Oh well actually I was still getting paid(long lunch) but I was just curious thats all.

 

Posted by karelin:

Just wondering why it would be so important to attend while missing work.

[walkenvol]

SLY,

 

You know we don't have to have Ronnie Carter/TSSAA involved for a dual meet. I have no problem accepting your opposite viewpoint. You say that its not fair to compete with anyone receiving financial aid. OK, I offer a concession that removes any competitors that don't meet your guidelines, yet still its "stop beating a dead horse". If it is aid only, then maybe a compromise is doable at some level. If it is something besides financial aid, then I agree with you that no amount of discussion will help. "Shut up walkenvol, your only a parent so your ideas don't count" doesn't strike me as a legitimate response to the concrete proposal on the table that addresses the stated sticking point. The discussion reconfirms my prior suspicions that this is more like a divorce with hurt feelings and residual emotions than a disagreement between reasonable people.

[sly]

walkenvol...your right about everything....hows that?

Whats changed?.....Nothing! What I was trying to explain is until DI/DII coaches and administrators get together and work this out and yes this includes the dual meet your asking for it doesn't matter what you want or I want for that matter. You have the right to voice your opinion but it would be better if you were talking to people that could actually do something about it. Otherwise, your wasting your breath. Some how I think you're getting a kick out of this whole thing. I guess I'll just do like the Legman...I'll be glad to discuss other issues about wrestling with you but I to am finished going back and forth with this issue.

 

Posted by walkenvol:

SLY,

 

You know we don't have to have Ronnie Carter/TSSAA involved for a dual meet. I have no problem accepting your opposite viewpoint. You say that its not fair to compete with anyone receiving financial aid. OK, I offer a concession that removes any competitors that don't meet your guidelines, yet still its "stop beating a dead horse". If it is aid only, then maybe a compromise is doable at some level. If it is something besides financial aid, then I agree with you that no amount of discussion will help. "Shut up walkenvol, your only a parent so your ideas don't count" doesn't strike me as a legitimate response to the concrete proposal on the table that addresses the stated sticking point. The discussion reconfirms my prior suspicions that this is more like a divorce with hurt feelings and residual emotions than a disagreement between reasonable people.

[Silverbullet]

Coach KCHS,

 

My comment was not intended as a cheap shot. I was only stating the obvious. Your school is one of many that benefit from a split tournament. Furthermore, I believe this entire argument is completely stupid. What's the big deal over one tournament? Many like Rob Sherrill will tell you having 2 tournaments has a major impact on recruiting. Many say it hurts wrestling throughout the state. My answer to that is.... HOGWASH!!! It hasn't hurt recruiting kids from Bradley or Clarksville or MBA or Soddy or Tullahoma or Dickson or Cleveland or McCallie or East Ridge or anywhere else where kids and coaches are willing to put in the work. Further, I don't believe that Fentress County will decide to fund wrestling because there is only one tournament. Would Knox County increase wrestling coach's supplements if the split were gone tomorrow? Get my point. If a college coach comes knocking on the Dunnings door, do you believe it matters a hoot if he beat a kid from Bradley or Soddy. Heck No!!!!

 

You try to make the point that this is all about the kids. Well...I'm not buying your point!!!! Most kids couldn't care less about the split. By the end of the season most of the good kids have faced each other at least once. I am perfectly serious about your kids buying a ticket. Knox Catholic had 7 medallists in last year's DII State Tournament. How many of those kids would have medalled in a combined tournament? None...maybe one. Go ask each of them if they would trade that medal for a combined tournament. I don't think you'd get many takers.

 

Let me sum this up for you...once and for all.

 

The TSSAA has rules governing competition. The schools in Division II schools would rather not play by those rules. The TSSAA said fine but there would have to be separate championships. The Division II schools said OK.

 

Now, a few years later, the D-II aficionados would like to rejoin the statewide fray whilst hoping the DI schools forget original sin or at least hope that time has rusted everyone's memory. Bradley and all those with un-rusted memories are bearing the brunt of the argument when in reality there is no argument. The TSSAA has a rule. The choices are to abide by it or get it changed. It does no one any good to berate Bradley. Bradley has one vote just like every other school. I saw on another post where someone mentions, "If Bradley would put its power behind a combining..." Shoot, Bradley has no more power in this argument than anyone else. If Bradley had the power this poster suggested, then I can guarantee you that the State Duals would not be in Clarksville every year.

 

In the passion of this issue there has been one point entirely missed by most. Bradley and Coach Logsdon should be given a dog-gone medal. In the face of constant criticism they continue to stand up for what they believe in. Who do you want in the foxhole beside you? Someone who has competed with total disregard of the rules or Steve Logsdon? I'll take one Logsdon in my foxhole and you can have a dozen cheaters. You may not agree with Bradley but you have to respect them.

 

This core of this argument does not center on what is best for kids. It's all about bragging rights. It's about who's the best. It's about the state rankings. It's about holding a trophy up in front of everyone and saying "We are # 1." It's about some fan or coach or parent being driven crazy by the fact that they think their team or their kid is the best in the state and there is a team or a kid in the other division that also says they are the best and they can't do anything about it. Ole WalkenVol, on this very thread, thinks his kid could have beaten the Bradley kid last year and been the sole Champion. Who cares? They both have a Gold Medal. The Bradley kid whose father died of cancer only months before takes his State Championship and goes to wrestle at UTC and the McCallie kid has a chance to win 3 in a row. So explain to me how the kids did not benefit????

 

If this was truly about kids as you say...we'd give them all medals and a pat on the butt and say "great job" like we do in beginner tournaments.

 

So give it a dad-gum rest. Bradley is not the bad guy. The DII schools are not bad guys. The rules are there. Lets play by them or find a way to get them changed.

 

Commoner

[Edited by Commoner on 9-17-02 6:01P]

[Edited by Commoner on 9-17-02 6:03P]

 

[karelin]

Commoner, you articulate very well many good points in your previous post, but you make two glaring contrasting and rather offensive remarks in doing so. "A dozen cheaters" are "not the bad guys" doesn't make sense(cheaters are bad guys); sounds like another biased point of view.

But consider another situation; look at our two neighboring states to the south. Yes, they probably have too many divisions, but none are determined by public vs. private. Look at what St Ed's does in Ohio every year, with Walsh Jesuit leading the Div. below them. There may be some complaints, but I guarantee you no more than public school Great Bridge gets in Va.

The fact of the matter is that all teams that win get critized; why do kids go out of their way to go to strong programs. Is it because the coaches there recruit them? I don't know of one coach that recruits; the bottom line is that a strong program recruits itself. Aspiring athletes want to belong with sucessful programs. I am impressed when a program comes out of nowhere such as Kenwood, Smyrna, Franklin,etc; but the top 10 teams in the state haven't changed a whole lot because tradition is tough to beat.

[legman]

Commoner,

 

Can't say that I have a clue who you are, but thanks for the kind words. It suddenly feels a little less lonely in this particular foxhole. (Would have e-mailed you personally, but like I said....)

 

Legman

[KCHSCoach]

Commoner thanks for taking the time to express your point, much more benifical than one liners. I know my kids benefit from the split, but I have also had medalists and even a State Champion before the split and I know how much that ment to my kids. Right now my whole team goes to the state tournament, I would much rather have my kids to go through a regional tournament, so at least if they make it to state they feel a since of accomplishment.

 

As for Father Ryan, Notre Dame and Knoxville Catholic, we are all in DII because our Bishopes state if a Catholic kid wants a Catholic education they should. In some cases the parish priest will pay for a kids tution whoes parents can not afford the tuition. We do not give finacial aide to athletes. We do not recruit. We are in this because we help our own regardless of ability, but we will not tell a kid who gets aid from his parish that he or she has to set out of athletics, which is such a vital part of the high school life and the development of youth. So please do not lump us in with "THE CHEATERS"

[walkenvol]

Commoner,

 

Produce my post where I said my son would have beaten Raines. It doesn't exist. I've never said my son would beat anybody or that McCallie as a team would beat anyone, those things are decided on the mat. I stand behind my post from last March where I made the point that many of the finals matches were not very close as was the case in both divisions of 119 lbs and that I thought a match between those two would have been a great match. There were other similar weight classes like 135 lbs. Lots of other folks jumped in with their opinions of who would have won many of those match ups. For the record, IMHO Adam would have been slightly favored in that matchup but it might have been a memorable match.

 

You along with others have posted on what you perceive that I think or want. You want to paint me as having some great hatred of Bradley or some sinister motives for discussing this topic. Confusing since I have clearly stated exactly what I think is best for TN wrestling which is for the best to compete with the best. I don't think this is the minority opinion. Most all of the top wrestlers and programs travel far and wide (Virginal Duals) in search of better competition because they know that's what's required to reach their potential. There is no current TSSAA rule prohibiting D1 and D2 schools from competing in dual meets or tournys. The only seperation is the year ending tournys. Unlike the other major D1 programs, Bradley chooses to take the spirit of that ruling and extend it to their entire season. Some (not I) have attacked them as "scared", "padding their record" or "dodging competition". Those are cheap shots at Bradley just like your cheap shot at Knoxville Catholic. I've attempted to explore the reasons for their stance and offer up a compromise to bring about some form of competition. I'm confident that McCallie meets the presplit financial aid quota on their wrestling team so if McCallie opting to not abide by the financial aid quota is the sticking point then there is no reason to not have a dual meet. Notice that this point has fallen on deaf ears. I welcome you and legman out of that foxhole. There's no war going on. We all support the same sport in the same state.

[KCHSCoach]

Commoner thanks for taking the time to express your point, much more benifical than one liners. I know my kids benefit from the split, but I have also had medalists and even a State Champion before the split and I know how much that ment to my kids. Right now my whole team goes to the state tournament, I would much rather have my kids to go through a regional tournament, so at least if they make it to state they feel a since of accomplishment.

 

As for Father Ryan, Notre Dame and Knoxville Catholic, we are all in DII because our Bishopes state if a Catholic kid wants a Catholic education they should. In some cases the parish priest will pay for a kids tution whoes parents can not afford the tuition. We do not give finacial aide to athletes. We do not recruit. We are in this because we help our own regardless of ability, but we will not tell a kid who gets aid from his parish that he or she has to set out of athletics, which is such a vital part of the high school life and the development of youth. So please do not lump us in with "THE CHEATERS"