What REALLY is the difference between D I & DII?

[fiftyfifty]

My response to the previous post should not even have to be posted. His statement "aid is not an issue as long as the private school plays for it? I am assuming that he meant pays for it. Aid as we all know is a huge issue, and cannot in any way be directed by anything other than financial need, not by sports. This has been hotly debated for years. Any private school that stops giving aid of any kind to an athlete can be in Div I, but if aid is given to athletes , the private school must be in Div II. Most private schools refuse to discriminate against a student just because he or she happens to play sports concerning financial aid. This is not going to change. The people who are against this are not going to change. As to directing or trying to control zones as far as private schools, well now we are getting into violations of our civil rights and this is not going to happen. Freedom of choice is very important to me and I know everybody else. Private schools are able and always will be able to take students that wish to attend and meet the criteria from anywhere within reason, reason meaning what a family can reasonable afford as far as travel and distance. This generally is somewhere in the neighborhood of a fifty mile radius, rarely anything else. This issue has nothing to do with sports. The statement that private schools opened here or there to make money is simply not true in most cases. In fact this statement is offensive to many, but it continues to be posted. You can't put private schools in a box when you are discussing them. There are distinct differences among private schools. Most private schools have other purposes in mind when they open a school. Usually it is an extension of their particular faith or mission. The statement is silly if anyone is including Catholic schools. Making money is never the reason for opening a Catholic school, rather the need for a new school based on the number of Catholics in an area expressing their desire to open a school. JPII was placed in its present location after a poll or vote was taken by the Diocese of Nashville and most people wanted it in its present area, thus the need. Sports was a complete non-issue in the decision making process of opening a new Catholic school. And MAKING MONEY, if the Catholic schools can just break even, we are extremely happy.

Unless it can be accepted that financial aid which is monitored by a third party in another state is accepted as being okay, then any effort to reunite is futile. Now there are some people who put sports as more important than allowing a child to attend the school of his or her choice with aid. I and a lot of other people are not of this mind-set. Sports has its place, but hardly could be considered as important is many other aspects of a good and solid education. And to stop aid to some families due to playing a sport is asking too much. And since there seems to be so many people in the state of Tennessee that thinks privates cheat and lie to win a ballgame, I can't envision them ever agreeing that financial aid can be allowed for needy families whose child plays sports. When private schools vs public and sports are discussed, it is virtually impossible to discuss this and hit all aspects on both sides of the issue. So what do alot of folks do, they discuss it from a pure sports aspect. This makes for narrow posts which tend to oversimplify. As to privates, this type of discussion would leave out issues that are of prime importance to private schools, their administration, their students, and the parents of their students. /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

 

PS One other statement in the previous post caught my attention. It basically stated to allow only a certain number of private schools in a particular zone. If this ever happens, see you in federal court.

[PHargis]

This is a good post and one which I respect from the Diocese of Nashville. The facts are, and not necessarily anything that has come from the Diocese, that you may be making more about the aid issue than it really is. I haven't heard anything from anyone about it except the issue you make of it most everytime you post, unless you are not the Diocese. It likely means more to you, and should, than anyone else. It is the reason some students can even go to your schools. Your constituancy is strong in the areas you are in and want the services you provide. Certainly a 50 mile radius even increases the reason for aid as it may increase the expense to go there even more and can be written off with aid. To spend time, up to 100 miles a day, in travel is a very good commitment even with aid and is something that can NEVER be discouraged and nowhere, that I know of, has fault been made of doing it. It is a false assumption and commonly brought up. It is a non issue, at least to this poster. If consideration is made to consolidate Divisions, I hope it is never brought up and decisions can be made on the merits on the issue.

And yes, sports is part of the issue as even one of you recent posts, ballyhooing Ryan with all of their sports results this past year to a JPII group of posters is one of the most recent events. It, without a doubt was important to you and to even think that it is not some degree of consideration and importance as well as degrading Schools in different parts of the state to your own advantage, is to overlook the obvious. I'll stop there.

 

Lets say all is perfect and you have the largest constituancy Private School in the area's you are in. You are now taking a position that Private Schools will run busses and recruit within a 50 mile radius and i'm not sure that has ever been stated before. Who agreed to that? Now its understood some of the posts. I think marketing on a Sports Site only reinforces what is trying to be done. Likely its unavoidable but the issue is not with the Diocese of Nashville.

 

The issue might be with the exuberance of a Private School going in to an area 35 or more miles away and cherrypicking the best Middle School Athletes from the schools there to go to school, the athletes coming back within a school year wearing the Schools hats with its name on it and bringing an equipemt bag into with the schools name on it. Thats against the TSSAA rules but remove the rule from the rule books. it is a rule that is only abused by the student. It means nothing. This had nothing to do with with a Catholic School nor the Diocese but if your post considers all Privates, and their activities, a part of Private School coverage of the Diocese, it may. I would not think it is. The TSSAA covers all of that and is the responsible party. The TSSAA is the governing party of High School Athletics in Tennessee. Just like in all Divisions, DII is asked to comply and has agreed to the same rules as the rest of the Divisions and that includes some of the high profile current situations on this thread.

 

Your post is good and very well thought out and makes no one fearful. It is only a starting point of what you consider your bounds are. Marketing is something Public Schools have not had to contend with nor be good at. As a Private School is an entity that requires marketing and ways to pay the bills, the public has not fully understood they are in a compromising situation as far as Tuition, fees, etc. Its pretty interesting that on one side of a county, schools are doing things to cut back expenses, travel and on the other side schools are pressing for a 50 mile diameter range. Not the Diocese as they are only a small number of the schools.

This post, like yours, should have never had to be written and this is finished.

[fiftyfifty]

This is a good post and one which I respect from the Diocese of Nashville. The facts are, and not necessarily anything that has come from the Diocese, that you may be making more about the aid issue than it really is. I haven't heard anything from anyone about it except the issue you make of it most everytime you post, unless you are not the Diocese. It likely means more to you, and should, than anyone else. It is the reason some students can even go to your schools. Your constituancy is strong in the areas you are in and want the services you provide. Certainly a 50 mile radius even increases the reason for aid as it may increase the expense to go there even more and can be written off with aid. To spend time, up to 100 miles a day, in travel is a very good commitment even with aid and is something that can NEVER be discouraged and nowhere, that I know of, has fault been made of doing it. It is a false assumption and commonly brought up. It is a non issue, at least to this poster. If consideration is made to consolidate Divisions, I hope it is never brought up and decisions can be made on the merits on the issue.

And yes, sports is part of the issue as even one of you recent posts, ballyhooing Ryan with all of their sports results this past year to a JPII group of posters is one of the most recent events. It, without a doubt was important to you and to even think that it is not some degree of consideration and importance as well as degrading Schools in different parts of the state to your own advantage, is to overlook the obvious. I'll stop there.

 

Lets say all is perfect and you have the largest constituancy Private School in the area's you are in. You are now taking a position that Private Schools will run busses and recruit within a 50 mile radius and i'm not sure that has ever been stated before. Who agreed to that? Now its understood some of the posts. I think marketing on a Sports Site only reinforces what is trying to be done. Likely its unavoidable but the issue is not with the Diocese of Nashville.

 

The issue might be with the exuberance of a Private School going in to an area 35 or more miles away and cherrypicking the best Middle School Athletes from the schools there to go to school, the athletes coming back within a school year wearing the Schools hats with its name on it and bringing an equipemt bag into with the schools name on it. Thats against the TSSAA rules but remove the rule from the rule books. it is a rule that is only abused by the student. It means nothing. This had nothing to do with with a Catholic School nor the Diocese but if your post considers all Privates, and their activities, a part of Private School coverage of the Diocese, it may. I would not think it is. The TSSAA covers all of that and is the responsible party. The TSSAA is the governing party of High School Athletics in Tennessee. Just like in all Divisions, DII is asked to comply and has agreed to the same rules as the rest of the Divisions and that includes some of the high profile current situations on this thread.

 

Your post is good and very well thought out and makes no one fearful. It is only a starting point of what you consider your bounds are. Marketing is something Public Schools have not had to contend with nor be good at. As a Private School is an entity that requires marketing and ways to pay the bills, the public has not fully understood they are in a compromising situation as far as Tuition, fees, etc. Its pretty interesting that on one side of a county, schools are doing things to cut back expenses, travel and on the other side schools are pressing for a 50 mile diameter range. Not the Diocese as they are only a small number of the schools.

This post, like yours, should have never had to be written and this is finished.

 

It is impossible to not bring up Aid and speak of reuniting the divisions. Aid is not just important to Catholic schools, but to almost all private schools and their families, to some families, it is critical. You read my statement using fifty miles as an example out of context, it has nothing to do with sports. Nobody is pressing for any fifty mile anything, that is your personal incorrect take once again on a post that you obviously don't understand. I had no thought of cherrypicking which I have yet to witness my entire life, perhaps you have, but probably not. My criticism of JPII which you seem so fond of mentioning has nothing to do with sports other than the assinine behavior of a single coach which will I am sure be corrected before next season. Father Ryan and JPII have run buses for several years and once again this has nothing to do with recruiting. It has to do with getting our students to school period. The problem you seem to have is seperating discussion of private schools without sports being primary when in fact it is secondary. I also had no intention of making anyone fearful by my post, to the contrary, a deeper understanding of private schools would make me happy. One last thought, Aid has nothing to do with how many miles one has to travel to go to school, Aid has to do with need based help which is based entirely on parents income, bills, etc. I fail to see what is so difficult to understand about that. The Diocese has approximately 25 schools contained in it more than any other single entity (private), so you must be speaking of high schools when you say it is a small number. Finally, there have been numberous posts in the past about the importance of Aid to families in need, and if you have not heard about it, perhaps that is because you were not listening or reading. PS My post citing Ryan's accomplishments is not balleyhooing as you describe it, but a proud statement of the facts. I am proud of Ryans accomplishments period. I fully understand that you would not know how that feels knowing the school that you cheer for. As to your constant subtle inquiring as to who I am, the diosese, a muslim, an aau coach, a highschooler, a principal, all of which you have posted in the past, I am a poster who speaks his opinion same as you. The part you hate is that I hardly ever agree with you on many issues, sorry, that would violate my conscience. Lastly, it would be impossible to reunite the divisions without the topic of Aid being a primary part of that discussion, and why, because there will be those that insist it is used to get athletes whether they are need based or not. What I have not seen or read much of at all is anyone wanting the divisions reunited. At DII ballgames, that topic is dead and buried. PSS as to marketing and fund-raising, the primary source of funds aside from tuition come from the generous hearts of our Catholic brethern, many of whom have not had a student at Ryan for decades. Without their giving, and the parishes, there would be no Catholic schools because the tuition would be so high that no one could afford it. I will repeat myself to make sure you understand, my post is not from the Diocese of Nashville, my post is from me. /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

[ChaunceyGardiner]

By the way, didn't know Mr Haney had a brother. Good picture

 

 

 

 

 

You asked for it, you got it. Brothers??? I think not! Compare for yourself.

[PHargis]

 

 

You asked for it, you got it. Brothers??? I think not! Compare for yourself.

Well you're right. the bottom pichure has his pants in his socks. MH would never have that.

[tradertwo]

All good points,but one determining factor that seems small until given some thought is restricted enrollment. Perhaps more important than recreuitment of athletes, or waiving tuition( sclolorships ), might be the abality to hold enrollments to a specific number while effectivley picking and choosing from hundreds of the better prospects in a larger area than a much larger overall public school,all the while having the abality to "just say no" to average applicants.In my opinion this gives more advantage than any other factor to the privates. Imagine a single A school,in a fairly large metropolitan area with the abality to condense a virtual "city wide all-star team" in any sport onto one team.Just food for thought,and anyones opinion to the contrary is welcome.

[PHargis]

All good points,but one determining factor that seems small until given some thought is restricted enrollment. Perhaps more important than recreuitment of athletes, or waiving tuition( sclolorships ), might be the abality to hold enrollments to a specific number while effectivley picking and choosing from hundreds of the better prospects in a larger area than a much larger overall public school,all the while having the abality to "just say no" to average applicants.In my opinion this gives more advantage than any other factor to the privates. Imagine a single A school,in a fairly large metropolitan area with the abality to condense a virtual "city wide all-star team" in any sport onto one team.Just food for thought,and anyones opinion to the contrary is welcome.

Had not really thought of that but restricted enrollments might be handled another way that are not as obvious. If someone intentionally wanted to skirt the rules, and I'm not saying anyone want to do so, with restricted enrollments and high entrance tuitions could allow aide or help yet keep the enrollments down.

People don't start schools to have all star teams. People start schools with a mission, known and unknown.. When great missions become obsessions, thats when some may border on crossing lines for the wrong reasons. I could be challenged on that statement. Taking your statement as it is on "just say no" leaving out athletics and making it apply to just any field might be just as misapplied. Private schools, not boarding, need to be zoned Your last sentence is perceptive and is actually happening now in very large cities with magnets.

[fiftyfifty]

All good points,but one determining factor that seems small until given some thought is restricted enrollment. Perhaps more important than recreuitment of athletes, or waiving tuition( sclolorships ), might be the abality to hold enrollments to a specific number while effectivley picking and choosing from hundreds of the better prospects in a larger area than a much larger overall public school,all the while having the abality to "just say no" to average applicants.In my opinion this gives more advantage than any other factor to the privates. Imagine a single A school,in a fairly large metropolitan area with the abality to condense a virtual "city wide all-star team" in any sport onto one team.Just food for thought,and anyones opinion to the contrary is welcome.

 

I guess some private school might have restricted enrollment, but I can't think of any. Most if not all private schools want to be at full capacity of students. As to your statement of imagining a small single A private school in a large metropoliton area with a city wide all-star team, well, if you ever find one, please post and let everyone know. I think that is more properly left to the imagination than reality. Other posters allude that high entrance exams somehow would affect aid. All I can say is Aid is need based period whether you play sports or not. Your post suggests that hundreds of athletes in a large city are just begging to go to a private school, that is not even close to reality. The great majority of these prospects would not attend a private school if they were paid a salary to do so. So in my opinion, your opinion about a perceived advantage is just that, an opinion, with no real evidence to back it up. The facts are there is no private school A or AA or any class that has an all star team in any sport, if they did what you suggested, there would be several private schools with all-star teams all over the state, but there isn't. Its not because the money is not there at many schools. Maybe they don't have all star teams because they are moral and live by the rules. Could that be the answer? Emotions and facts are two different animals. In sports, the playing field is not level, it never has been, it never will be. One last thing, there is no such thing as another poster alluded to as zoning for private schools. That would be a violation of civil rights and it ain't gonna happen.

[tradertwo]

All good points,but one determining factor that seems small until given some thought is restricted enrollment. Perhaps more important than recreuitment of athletes, or waiving tuition( sclolorships ), might be the abality to hold enrollments to a specific number while effectivley picking and choosing from hundreds of the better prospects in a larger area than a much larger overall public school,all the while having the abality to "just say no" to average applicants.In my opinion this gives more advantage than any other factor to the privates. Imagine a single A school,in a fairly large metropolitan area with the abality to condense a virtual "city wide all-star team" in any sport onto one team.Just food for thought,and anyones opinion to the contrary is welcome.

 

I guess some private school might have restricted enrollment, but I can't think of any. Most if not all private schools want to be at full capacity of students. As to your statement of imagining a small single A private school in a large metropoliton area with a city wide all-star team, well, if you ever find one, please post and let everyone know. I think that is more properly left to the imagination than reality. Other posters allude that high entrance exams somehow would affect aid. All I can say is Aid is need based period whether you play sports or not. Your post suggests that hundreds of athletes in a large city are just begging to go to a private school, that is not even close to reality. The great majority of these prospects would not attend a private school if they were paid a salary to do so. So in my opinion, your opinion about a perceived advantage is just that, an opinion, with no real evidence to back it up. The facts are there is no private school A or AA or any class that has an all star team in any sport, if they did what you suggested, there would be several private schools with all-star teams all over the state, but there isn't. Its not because the money is not there at many schools. Maybe they don't have all star teams because they are moral and live by the rules. Could that be the answer? Emotions and facts are two different animals. In sports, the playing field is not level, it never has been, it never will be. One last thing, there is no such thing as another poster alluded to as zoning for private schools. That would be a violation of civil rights and it ain't gonna happen. [/quot.I've given a lot of thought as to how to illustrate an example without "naming names",which I wont do, and I cannot. I can however give a few of the more outstanding examples from one school,before the multiplier was enacted,and if someone solves the puzzle so be it.Girls basketball; Gibson Co.,mid nienties,a soph. guard led the dist.(& the region,I think)in scoring.Recreutied to a private school 25 miles away for her junior and senior seasons.Same time frame,an underprivileged(poor),gifted girls father is appointed janitor,tuition waived,four year starter.Baseball; Brother of one of the most talked about players on these boards(45-50 miles one way)is transported to and from school to play( how far is too far?).All city team,how about all West Tennessee team? Hands down the most appealing education around.Wealthy sponsors & boosters.Statewide acclaim,and multiple state titles in serveral diverse sports.Same time frame as aforementioned events a neighbors niece & nephew four miles from campus were politely denied admission,although tuition was not a problem,and both were honor students!Makes you go hmmmmm, does it not?

[fiftyfifty]

Actually it doesn't surprise me one bit. I have never stated that all private schools follow the spirit as well as the letter of the rules, some do not. The examples you cited are good examples of this and should not happen. The unfortunate part of it is a low-income child and his father have some sort of future to look forward to hopefully, very unfortunate that it violates a rule for this to occur. As to the leading scorer at the county school that ended up transferring, I cannot comment on that as there may have been compelling reasons for her to do so. I do not think a child should be held back from reaching his or her full potential, but as I stated, I don't know the circumstances. If she was attending Gibson Co who I believe are very successful in basketball and then she ups and transfers, there must be a compelling reason. All of this is very difficult to moniter. PS Who is the private that you refer to as multiple titles in various sports and hands down the superior education? PSS if a student was denied admission, I find that strange at best, unethical at worst. All I can tell you is not all privates act in that manner if true, not all privates are alike, and they can't be lumped in a big bag as some have attempted to do. By the way, I do not give a hoot if public and private totally seperate in sports, although I think both will lose something. I do care about quality education, quality enviroment, and the building of the total person as much as is possible. Even if there is total seperation as to titles etc, we can still play each other from time to time, something that alot of schools enjoy, both public and private. Pss the child you referred to from Gibson Co can be described as recruited, but both she and her parent chose to attend somewhere else, or at least the parent did. Right or wrong, nobody has ever forced a family to move their child to a different school to the best of my knowledge. So any blame can be spread out a bit more, don't you think. But what are we blaming the parent or child for? For choosing to go to a different school where they must feel their future is more secure. Can't hardly do that. Or is there an unwritten law that states you have to give up your choices when it comes to choosing a school if you play sports, don't hardly seem fair. There are so many issues that have to be dealt with when this topic is addressed, almost impossible to do.

[tradertwo]

Very good points,all of them.I will not disclose the school,or names of students,water under the bridge. I might surprise you by agreeing with you almost completly. I DO NOT BLAME AT ALL the students,or parents of these athletes,as they made the most of their respective situations,and it's not legally,nor morally wrong to be catered to,in my opinion. I do however hold the administration accountable for these actions.Clearly every attempt to skirt the rules was made to secure the best athletes within probably a 100 mile radius,and that number alone should take your breath! As for education it's not argueable that this school was(is) without equal in the aforementioned radius. Funding,not a problem either,as the most affluent families names around are proudly displayed in the gym as "super boosters"(a very important baseball games rainout was averted when one of these super boosters in attendance called his pilot,and had his helicopter hover over the infield to dry it).Having trouble keeping a straight face,I cant blame you,but every word is true.The restricted enrollment was easy enough,"classrooms are full,we just do not have facilities to accomodate any more students".The ones hurt by these infractions are the ones following the rules.

[movinonup]

Very good points,all of them.I will not disclose the school,or names of students,water under the bridge. I might surprise you by agreeing with you almost completly. I DO NOT BLAME AT ALL the students,or parents of these athletes,as they made the most of their respective situations,and it's not legally,nor morally wrong to be catered to,in my opinion. I do however hold the administration accountable for these actions.Clearly every attempt to skirt the rules was made to secure the best athletes within probably a 100 mile radius,and that number alone should take your breath! As for education it's not argueable that this school was(is) without equal in the aforementioned radius. Funding,not a problem either,as the most affluent families names around are proudly displayed in the gym as "super boosters"(a very important baseball games rainout was averted when one of these super boosters in attendance called his pilot,and had his helicopter hover over the infield to dry it).Having trouble keeping a straight face,I cant blame you,but every word is true.The restricted enrollment was easy enough,"classrooms are full,we just do not have facilities to accomodate any more students".The ones hurt by these infractions are the ones following the rules.

 

Everytime I hear this helicopter story it gets better---by next year, the "super booster" will have gone out and BOUGHT the helicopter just to dry the field Most of us "affluent Super Booster" families do it to #1 support the school (IT'S USJ BY THE WAY - you are doing such a good job not disclosing the school) but also # 2 - it's much cheaper than buying individual tickets to each game.

 

Oh wait, the super booster bought the company that made the helicopter......