Referee/Fan-in-stand relations?

[Indian]

No cursing should be tolerated but sometimes the fans reach a boiling point, the same as coaches having to sit there and take it. In an article I read tonight, the Cleveland girls' coach said in getting a technical, she "wasn't going to sit there and watch while one of her players took such a shot to the face", something along those lines. To start the season one of the girls from the team here took an unintentional, though foul-worthy hit to the head (seven stitches) and was bleeding all over the court while still dribbling. The refs blew the whistle only to get her off the court and clean up the blood, not for the foul. After a tournament game earlier this week, the coach received apologies from the opposing coach and the tournament director both, after her team had been roughed up from the get-go with very little called, at least until the fourth quarter when there seemed to be a lot of make-up calls in an attempt to even out the number. That drew plenty of howls from the crowd and some parents mentioned they'd rather the coach just pull the team from the court, several no-calls were just brutal muggings as the hosts knew they could get away with most anything. Do any refs anywhere expect the crowd just to sit there silent when those sort of things are taking place?

[PHargis]

This is pretty tough. If i'm not mistaken, supervisors of officials hve looked in on this site to see what is going on in the state. If something is out of order, explaining the situation and the District might be of help for supervisors to look in on the situation as training might be needed. Players do not need to be hurt.

[senator]

I have seen crowds get out of line with jeers and name calling and many times if its not halted early by a official it will get worse and as a result coaches, players and refrees get fustrated. A good official will not lose control, although he never wants to eject anyone sometimes to identify bad sportsmanship and behavior that will result in caous or possible injury early is good prevention. Now saying that we all know 10-15% of people in a few programs gripe or cause these kind of issues. Officiating is not easy and 80% of these guys do it to stay in shape and because they love the game, and do a good job. However a few of them don't care, do a bad job and should not be there, but thats pretty well how it is in any aspect of life. Almost all coaches know the good ones and the not so good, and they know who they can complain to agressive and who they can't, but at the end of the game most of us know who was fair (not giving us a call) that made a judgement call with what he thought was right and being in position to make the call.(to me thats very important) When (and they will) make a bad call thats part of the game and your team either got one or will get one in every game but to many of us those go unnoticed.

[etownsparky]

you got to watch saying you suck. there are some cry baby refs that willo toss you for that. i got tossed. refs have way too much power

 

Officials have been instructed by their supervisors and from the state office that "you suck" is deemed very inappropriate for any high school (or any level) athletic arena. Game administrators are very much aware that if the officials hear that phrase they will be asked to address the person who says it. Officials don't leave home looking forward to ejecting fans. In the opinion of some people, officiating is getting worse; but, when you are at games, you should also realize that some fans are getting worse. But that's the nature of the beast. Merry Christmas and Have a safe new year.

 

luv2ref - Let me caveat what I'm about to post by saying that I agree most "officials don't leave home looking forward to ejecting fans." However, there are a growing number of egotistical refs that seem to enjoy showcasing their authority. I do appreciate most officials for doing a largely thankless job and taking some of the verbal abuse they endure. The bottom line is that you have to have thick skin to do the job. Some have it and others don't. If you don't, you should probably look for a different "second job."

 

I was at a game last year when a fan near me was totally and unjustifiably ejected by an official. It was a big conference game between the top 2 teams and let's just say this particular official was struggling. A lot of fans from both teams were on this ref. After a controversial call (the ref blew it and he knew it) the guy beside me made the comment, "Come on John Doe, you are better than that (I left the ref's real name out to protect the not so innocent moron)." This ref basically ignored the next minute of the game and initiated dialogue with the guy (basically provoking him) before stopping play to have him tossed. I heard every word out of the fan's mouth and there were no threatening remarks or foul language or anything that justified being tossed. The ref told our coach he was tossing the guy because his comments were personal as he called him by name. Note: The ref also indicated to our coach that he remembered the guy from his high school days (~20 years ago) and wasn't going to listen to his crap. I suppose the endearing remarks towards the same ref like "you suck" and "you SOB" that were coming from a loud-mouthed group of fans from the other team were not personal or inflammatory enough to constitute ejection as nothing was done about that behavior during the whole game. This particular ref has a good knowledge of the game and is very proficient in the rules, but has an ego so large it's hard for him to fit his head through the door of the gym. Our local supervisors rewarded him with a trip to the state tournament last year. Personally, I hate to see him show up to call one of our games. Not because he's incapable of doing a good job, but rather because he's an ego maniac with a chip on his shoulder just looking for someone to knock it off. Just do the job you agreed to do and stay out of the stands! If you are unwilling or unable to that, hang up the pin-stripes and go home... Just my 2 cents.

[gledbetter]

For the ones who think referee's have rabbit ears....

 

How would you feel about someone coming to your work while your kids are there to tell you that "YOU SUCK", "KEEP YOUR DAY JOB" or being called a "CHEATER".

 

I referee'd for 10 years and gave it up because all of the horrible sportsmanship from fans & coaches and every year it was getting worse. Will admit there's some great fans and coach, but the majority are horrible.

[PHargis]

A question might be asked "Who is responsible for crowd control at a game?" Is it covered in the TSSAA rules? Are these rules signed off by the schools?

[etownsparky]

For the ones who think referee's have rabbit ears....

 

How would you feel about someone coming to your work while your kids are there to tell you that "YOU SUCK", "KEEP YOUR DAY JOB" or being called a "CHEATER".

 

I referee'd for 10 years and gave it up because all of the horrible sportsmanship from fans & coaches and every year it was getting worse. Will admit there's some great fans and coach, but the majority are horrible.

 

It sounds like you did the right thing by getting out. Fans and coaches getting on refs is part of the game. It always has been and always will be. As I said before, if an official is concentrating on the game I believe it's difficult for them to even hear what's being said in the crowd. I think oftentimes the comments definitely fall into the category of poor sportsmanship. However, many times I find it difficult to hold my tongue when it's apparent that an official is dictating the outcome of a game. I absolutely understand that refs are human and mistakes are to be expected. But, when they consistently loaf and miss calls because they are out of position or anticipate what is going to happen before it happens; it is frustrating for the players, coaches and fans alike. The players and coaches spend countless hours practicing and preparing for games and I think it's only fair that the players on the floor decide the outcomes of games. During the many games I've watched over the years, I've found that during the best officiated games you hardly even notice the refs are on the floor. On the contrary, I find that the worst refs are those that have an attitude that they came to be seen.

 

The situation would be better if the grading of officials was solely based on merit. However, in the local association, the officials that get the best marks often seem to be those that suck up to the supervisors or have the most seniority.

[LtDan]

For the ones who think referee's have rabbit ears....

 

How would you feel about someone coming to your work while your kids are there to tell you that "YOU SUCK", "KEEP YOUR DAY JOB" or being called a "CHEATER".

 

I referee'd for 10 years and gave it up because all of the horrible sportsmanship from fans & coaches and every year it was getting worse. Will admit there's some great fans and coach, but the majority are horrible.

PLEASE!!!!!!!! Are you telling us you never attended a basketball game before becoming a referee?

[seriously]

1. etownsparky ..... nice post 2. gledbetter ..... in a perfect world, things would be perfect ..... unfortunately, its not, so they are not ..... you know what you are getting into when you sign up to wear the stripes

[luv2ref]

A question might be asked "Who is responsible for crowd control at a game?" Is it covered in the TSSAA rules? Are these rules signed off by the schools?

 

1. Each school is responsible for providing a game administrator who is responsible for crowd control. But I think that it may be misunderstood as to what 'crowd control' is. It is only when a fan has gone beyond the point of no return when officials step in. Officials are few, so unfortunately we have to work at many schools more than we probably need to because of that. For that reason, officials know at most gyms who is going to be problems; why don't the GA's know this. If other fans hear it and officials can hear it, why can't the GA's hear it and step in before the officials have too. I'm not trying to advocate rabbit ears, but I am saying that GA's need to step up and do their job and not depend on the officials too. I have officiated several times in one of the greatest atmospheres in TN basketball and for the first time had to eject a fan there. Not for what they said, but for coming on the floor to say it. Needless to say, the fan had said so much in the stands that he thought we didn't hear him, so he came on the floor. Do you think others heard him before it got to this point? I believe so. What did the GA do; escorted him out after we requested it. I believe they should have addressed the problem before that point. GA's are responsibe for crowd control and for once I would like to hear that a rowdy fan was addressed before we have to address it. In our association we are repremanded for lazy and careless officiating. First by the referee of each crew and then by the supervisor, because the R fills out a report to him.

 

2. (Not a part of your statement) Players play with a great level of intensity and basketball is no longer the "no contact" game it used to be. I'm hoping that officials are calling contact and intense contact, especially, that is unfair. But even in the best officiated games players get injured. Volleyball, cross country, tennis, etc... all have their share of injuries and they are non-contact sports. With that said, officials don't cause players to get hurt. They definitely can control the penalty for contact, but the thoughts and intentions of players can't even be controlled by coaches, let alone officials. SSL.

[PHargis]

The level you have gone into with this discussion makes me feel pretty good because it tells me there has been some discussion on this matter and with responses on this site, it leaves some holes in the subject especially when it insinuates to some degree that no one but the official can and will help control the situation when there is a plan, or used to be a plan, in plain view and school officials assigned to work with officials and security to keep anything from happening. It has pinpointed the official but in truth the official may have taken more of the responsibility than he/she may be assigned. However it does bring out the fact that the official is the point of contact of ejecting someone.I hope you come back after this post and explain if that is so or not. Fans on here usually post infractions of crowds.

The way I understand it, each school has security measures that an Administration person is to help to control. There is also an adminsitration official assigned for students and the crowd. They may be the same person. These people meet before the game and go over the rules with the coaches and the lead official. Every one is on the same page. I see some events this done and others not. Small crowds do not emphasize the meeting but larger crowds, overflows, etc, the meetings are obvious. Gym security is obvious. At the start of each game, something is read over the speaker system about sportmanship I believe to again emphasize importance. All of these things are done, or not done. But safety is of high regard. For your information, I have seen coaches and administrators go in the stands to help control the crowd. When that is done it diffuses the problem. In some cases, it does not.

I'm afraid the game official will always get the worse cases after the official has asked help of security. No one else knows the degree of tolerance that will be accepted or may not have heard. Crowd control is more of a problem today than it was 5-6 years ago. As long as humans are involved it will always be a problem. Good administrators have few problems both at a school and in the conduct of the game. Assigning officials in contentious games is an important task.

I appreciate your statement #2 about injuries. An observation is your last two sentences are very important and with that a continued conversation between officials and coaches will help prevention of injuries and at times help crowd control. A sense of officials helping to keep injuries down certainly helps the attitude of the crowd on both sides and if that is severity of penalties, the fairness is the reason the official is there.

District games are fixing to start.

[Indian]

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2009 ... s-nip-gps/

 

This is one of the incidents mentioned. Sounds like 3 refs who had no idea what was going on in the game.

 

"Down three points with 2:41 remaining, Moore earned the technical after arguing a no-call when senior and tournament MVP Q'Schara Brown was knocked to the floor by a Jenae Perry elbow in the game. The Lady Raiders went on a 13-3 run the rest of the way and won their second consecutive tournament championship, 59-52 over the Bruisers.

 

"I didn't hesitate," Moore said. "I know it was a close game, and that's not typically an ideal time to get one, but never will I stand by and let a kid get hit in the face -- and hit hard. I thought there should have been a call."

 

The knock-down, drag-out affair lived up to its' billing as a heavyweight bout, as the physical contest featured 37 fouls, with two GPS players (Perry and Simone Busby) fouling out. Cleveland connected on 11 of 14 free throws over the final 2:11, and Brown returned from a nose bloodied by the Perry elbow to score a key putback late in the game.

 

"Coach just told us to stay together, and not to let what the other team was doing get to us," senior guard Jessica King said.