Interesting Article

[fiftyfifty]

Perhaps this explains some of the differences in Div II football. An article in the Nashville Tennessean about Jeff Brothers and his new job since leaving JPII, is now head coach at another private school, I forget the name of the school.

But the interesting part of the article was the revelation that JPII had 14 football players total on financial aid, and that Father Ryan had only 8 total. This was explained as the lowest number among Div II teams. I had to post this because it shows clearly that Ryan and JPII give financial aid on need based only, not to get a football player or a player for any sport for that matter. And therein is the difference fans. I was very proud to read that.

Edited July 29, 2010 by stbulldog

[shakinthefat]

Perhaps this explains some of the differences in Div II football. An article in the Nashville Tennessean about Jeff Brothers and his new job since leaving JPII, is now head coach at another private school, I forget the name of the school.

But the interesting part of the article was the revelation that JPII had 14 football players total on financial aid, and that Father Ryan had only 8 total. This was explained as the lowest number among Div II teams. I had to post this because it shows clearly that Ryan and JPII give financial aid on need based only, not to get a football player or a player for any sport for that matter. And therein is the difference fans. I was very proud to read that.

 

Perhaps there were only 14 families that qualified and there were another 20 families that applied for need based aid but did not receive it. This could be due to not making the cutoff or the money dried up from the 14 students who applied earlier.

The financial aid packet that I filled out years ago and sent to a clearing house in New Jersey, not the school, did not ask if my child was a football player, artist, singer, volleyball player etc......

Another reason JPII and FRHS have lower financial aid numbers is because they are not the top tier DII football schools so the need based financial aid parents are sending their kids to other schools with more successful programs.

If you look on the sidelines during a MBA/JPII game or a FRHS/BA there will be 30 more kids on MBA's and BA's sideline than JPII or FRHS.

WHY......traditional rich football program that kids and families want to be apart of.

So a roster of 60 kids and 14 receive aid is 23%. A roster of 90 kids and 22 receive aid is 24%.

NOT a big "REVELATION"

[rollredroll]

What is the range of tuitions at the various schools?

 

Years back, I did some research based on the Form 990s filed by certain private schools. These forms showed how much aid was given and to how many students (no academic/athletic designations, of course). When calculating the average aid grant to the tuition of the school, some families on aid were still paying $8K out of pocket for their kids to attend school. What's interesting about this is that a family could be paying half-freight ($8K) to attend one DII school, and the kid would have the dreaded "scholarship" label. However, the same family could pay $8K at another DII school, and that would be full-freight (tuiton) at that school, and thus the kid would not be on aid.

 

Does a school that has a family that pays $8K towards tuition at a $15K school have an advantage over a school that has a family that pays $8K towards tuition at a $8K school?

 

Food for thought...

Edited July 29, 2010 by rollredroll

[KWoodroof]

Perhaps this explains some of the differences in Div II football. An article in the Nashville Tennessean about Jeff Brothers and his new job since leaving JPII, is now head coach at another private school, I forget the name of the school.

But the interesting part of the article was the revelation that JPII had 14 football players total on financial aid, and that Father Ryan had only 8 total. This was explained as the lowest number among Div II teams. I had to post this because it shows clearly that Ryan and JPII give financial aid on need based only, not to get a football player or a player for any sport for that matter. And therein is the difference fans. I was very proud to read that.

I read the article, and found it interesting. Unfortunately, the author provides no real context or definition of terms. The fact that JPII had 14 players receiving aid and Ryan 8, as compared to a minimum of 22 at other Div. II schools is almost meaningless (though I'll concede that you'd be hard put to beat either school up for recruiting, especially FR). How many players are on the team, and how does the percentage of football players reciving aid compare with the student body at large. And what exactly is "the team?" Is it the varsity, all the players in the high school, or the entire football program (noting that BA and MBA both have large 7th and 8th grade teams)?

 

It does seem to make it clear that the Catholic schools are trying to do things according to the spirit of the rules (or their recruiting director is incredibly parsimonious).

 

BTW, did you read any of the comments after the article? Absolutely toxic.

[fiftyfifty]

Perhaps there were only 14 families that qualified and there were another 20 families that applied for need based aid but did not receive it. This could be due to not making the cutoff or the money dried up from the 14 students who applied earlier.

The financial aid packet that I filled out years ago and sent to a clearing house in New Jersey, not the school, did not ask if my child was a football player, artist, singer, volleyball player etc......

Another reason JPII and FRHS have lower financial aid numbers is because they are not the top tier DII football schools so the need based financial aid parents are sending their kids to other schools with more successful programs.

If you look on the sidelines during a MBA/JPII game or a FRHS/BA there will be 30 more kids on MBA's and BA's sideline than JPII or FRHS.

WHY......traditional rich football program that kids and families want to be apart of.

So a roster of 60 kids and 14 receive aid is 23%. A roster of 90 kids and 22 receive aid is 24%.

NOT a big "REVELATION"

Not only did you miss my point about following the rules, whether intentional or not, your reasons for number of players on sidelines is exagerrated and simply not true. You better count again at a Ryan game, many times there are 50 or more players on the field. I would call Ryan a traditionally rich football history, just not recently. You may think something else. The stats given in the article were from the TSSAA. And as I posted before, it appears that Ryan is following the rules. You are preaching to the preacher about financial aid, I have way more experience with it than I would like to admit. Your percentages are interesting at best, but probably inaccurate. I believe Ryan gives financial aid to athletes at a lower percentage than some or all of the powerhouses in Div II, thus the difference in talent level. Their financial aid is handed out need-based only as it should be, no other reason. I am proud of Ryan, we may not win every game or some seasons win any games, but when we do win, it will be with pride, honestly, and dignity. I was just informed very recently about an athlete who will enter 9th grade with a full scholarship, everything paid for, this was told to me personally by the parent. I did not mention gender or sport so no need to speculate. What school will the athlete attend, not Ryan.

Edited July 29, 2010 by stbulldog

[rollredroll]

BTW, did you read any of the comments after the article? Absolutely toxic.

 

Check out the City Paper for further post-article toxicity (re: e-mail story we exchanged this past week).

Edited July 29, 2010 by rollredroll

[shakinthefat]

Not only did you miss my point about following the rules, whether intentional or not, your reasons for number of players on sidelines is exagerrated and simply not true. You better count again at a Ryan game, many times there are 50 or more players on the field. I would call Ryan a traditionally rich football history, just not recently. You may think something else. The stats given in the article were from the TSSAA. And as I posted before, it appears that Ryan is following the rules. You are preaching to the preacher about financial aid, I have way more experience with it than I would like to admit. Your percentages are interesting at best, but probably inaccurate. I believe Ryan gives financial aid to athletes at a lower percentage than some or all of the powerhouses in Div II, thus the difference in talent level. Their financial aid is handed out need-based only as it should be, no other reason. I am proud of Ryan, we may not win every game or some seasons win any games, but when we do win, it will be with pride, honestly, and dignity. I was just informed very recently about an athlete who will enter 9th grade with a full scholarship, everything paid for, this was told to me personally by the parent. I did not mention gender or sport so no need to speculate. What school will the athlete attend, not Ryan.

 

That's just IT! From my limited amount of knowledge about need based financial aid, the schools don't dish out the money at their discretion. You said "I believe Ryan gives financial aid.......", they don't give it out like it's theirs to give. The family has to prove with tax returns and other financial disclosures to a clearing house that they are in "need" of the money provided by the school for tuition. Then the request for funds and the amount qualified come back to the school for approval.

My point is, just because only 8 players (per TSSAA) are on need based aid doesn't mean other schools are cheating and not following the rules. Maybe the tuition is lower than other schools and FRHS is more affordable.

Again I have limited knowledge on the subject but I have applied for it before and this is what I have been told.

I was also told no one receives 100% tuition, the parents have to provide partial payment.

It's also interesting the TSSAA and the Tennessean are trading info. Neither are DII supporters.

Also count the players on the BA, MBA, MUS, Baylor or CBHS. At least 70 to 80 players.

1997 was the last FRHS championship. If they are a top tier program then they should be in the hunt at least every other year.

I really hate this discussion on the DII messages. Let it die!

[doct]

One could make that assumption from the article. However, with tuition ranging from the mid 17's-low 20's at EHS, BA, and MBA, more families need assistance to get into the school. The tuition range is significantly higher at those schools vs the parochial schools.

[KWoodroof]

That's just IT! From my limited amount of knowledge about need based financial aid, the schools don't dish out the money at their discretion. You said "I believe Ryan gives financial aid.......", they don't give it out like it's theirs to give. The family has to prove with tax returns and other financial disclosures to a clearing house that they are in "need" of the money provided by the school for tuition. Then the request for funds and the amount qualified come back to the school for approval.

My point is, just because only 8 players (per TSSAA) are on need based aid doesn't mean other schools are cheating and not following the rules. Maybe the tuition is lower than other schools and FRHS is more affordable.

Again I have limited knowledge on the subject but I have applied for it before and this is what I have been told.

I was also told no one receives 100% tuition, the parents have to provide partial payment.

It's also interesting the TSSAA and the Tennessean are trading info. Neither are DII supporters.

Also count the players on the BA, MBA, MUS, Baylor or CBHS. At least 70 to 80 players.

1997 was the last FRHS championship. If they are a top tier program then they should be in the hunt at least every other year.

I really hate this discussion on the DII messages. Let it die!

This is a perfectly reasonable topic for the Div II board, given that financial aid is the reason that Div !! exists. I believe you're correct in the assertion that the schools can give no more aid than the folks in Princeton determine is appropriate. However, I don't believe the independent body's determination that I can recieve $1,000 in aid obligates Ryan to provide that much to me. I would assume that the lion's share, if not all of the financial aid money would go to Catholic students: Ryan's mission, first and foremost, is to provide a Catholic education. I would expect that the financial aid money would go there first (chime in if you know better, sts...). And while the tuition at Ryan is probably less than that of MBA and EHS (no idea what it is for BA), I'm guessing that there are more sibling groups at Ryan than the other schools.

 

It's easy to take shots at Ryan's football record, but it ignores the fact that the Div II teams they play, especially the local ones, are excellent programs. If MBA, BA, EHS, and Ryan compete in the same division, someone comes out 4th, no matter how good they are. And Ryan was most definitely in the hunt last year. An 8 point loss in the semi-final to the eventual winner is a good season, any way you slice it. Had the TSSAA mainatined a sensible alignment given the size of state (3 classifications, each with 16 districts), I think Ryan would have remained at or very near the top of their deistrict, a spot they inhabited from the inception of the distruct system.

[cbg]

The following is what I found when researching tuition cost. Keep in mind that some schools include books, lunch, class rings, athletic fees, etc... into the tuition cost and some charge extra for all of those items.

 

McCallie (20,245 for day student & 37,955 for boarding)

 

Memphis University School (16,750)

 

Baylor (19,536 for day student & 39,790 for boarding)

 

Father Ryan (10,185 for Catholic contribution to parish, 11,485 for Catholic with no contribution & 14,630 for non Catholics)

 

Pope John Paul II (9,950 for Catholic contribution to parish & 11,425 for everyone else)

 

Montgomery Bell Academy (19,625)

 

Brentwood Academy (17,200)

 

Ensworth (19,200)

[fiftyfifty]

That's just IT! From my limited amount of knowledge about need based financial aid, the schools don't dish out the money at their discretion. You said "I believe Ryan gives financial aid.......", they don't give it out like it's theirs to give. The family has to prove with tax returns and other financial disclosures to a clearing house that they are in "need" of the money provided by the school for tuition. Then the request for funds and the amount qualified come back to the school for approval.

My point is, just because only 8 players (per TSSAA) are on need based aid doesn't mean other schools are cheating and not following the rules. Maybe the tuition is lower than other schools and FRHS is more affordable.

Again I have limited knowledge on the subject but I have applied for it before and this is what I have been told.

I was also told no one receives 100% tuition, the parents have to provide partial payment.

It's also interesting the TSSAA and the Tennessean are trading info. Neither are DII supporters.

Also count the players on the BA, MBA, MUS, Baylor or CBHS. At least 70 to 80 players.

1997 was the last FRHS championship. If they are a top tier program then they should be in the hunt at least every other year.

I really hate this discussion on the DII messages. Let it die!

I will post what I want. I do find it interesting that you mention the word cheating. I certainly never mentioned it. You may have been told that no one receives 100& tuition, and that is true as far as the clearinghouse that privates use go. But I can assure you that some athletes receive 100% percent one way or another. Your statement about the TSSAA and the Tennessean is a little naive. The TSSAA gave the stats, they are what they are concerning aid. In your post you said you find this or that interesting. Thats the title of this thread, Interesting Article. I am asserting that Ryan athletes are treated just like everyone else, thus there would be no reason for an inflated number of them receiving aid and that is what I am proud of. And if you don't like it, tough. One last point Skinthefat, if you think a school can't manipulate aid, I have some property in the desert I would like to sell you. You just happen to be attending a school that refuses to bend the rules at all, that what I am proud of.

Edited July 30, 2010 by stbulldog

[fiftyfifty]

This is a perfectly reasonable topic for the Div II board, given that financial aid is the reason that Div !! exists. I believe you're correct in the assertion that the schools can give no more aid than the folks in Princeton determine is appropriate. However, I don't believe the independent body's determination that I can recieve $1,000 in aid obligates Ryan to provide that much to me. I would assume that the lion's share, if not all of the financial aid money would go to Catholic students: Ryan's mission, first and foremost, is to provide a Catholic education. I would expect that the financial aid money would go there first (chime in if you know better, sts...). And while the tuition at Ryan is probably less than that of MBA and EHS (no idea what it is for BA), I'm guessing that there are more sibling groups at Ryan than the other schools.

 

It's easy to take shots at Ryan's football record, but it ignores the fact that the Div II teams they play, especially the local ones, are excellent programs. If MBA, BA, EHS, and Ryan compete in the same division, someone comes out 4th, no matter how good they are. And Ryan was most definitely in the hunt last year. An 8 point loss in the semi-final to the eventual winner is a good season, any way you slice it. Had the TSSAA mainatined a sensible alignment given the size of state (3 classifications, each with 16 districts), I think Ryan would have remained at or very near the top of their deistrict, a spot they inhabited from the inception of the distruct system.

K,

 

As always a good level and common sense post. You know and I know that success doesn't always mean you win it all. By the way, the player that has been told they would be receiving a full ride is not just tuition, but books, meals, everything. And guess what, its not Ryan or MBA, no more on this. I would not make this up. Oh I almost forgot, non catholic students qualify for financial aid same as Catholic students. There are many siblings at Ryan, always have been.

Edited July 30, 2010 by stbulldog