Baylor vs. Ensworth

[countrypk]

The fact that the racism charge is often made gratuitously doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Unless your snide commendation of diversity in two top prep schools was aimed at the presence of white players, I'm pretty comfortable with calling you a racist.

 

You fail to recognize the situation the independent schools face here. In the late '70's the federal government began to hint at a revocation of the provision that allowed cash gifts to us to be tax deductible, based on the fact that we excluded black students. Such a move would be devastating to our endowment funds, which provide a great deal of the money used to run the schools: tuition alone doesn't cut it. No matter how good the school is, it can't function without cash. Ask the people at Wallace, Duncan, or Castle Heights, among others. Trick question, you can't. they all closed. They ran out of money.

 

So we made great efforts to integrate our student bodies. And in return, we attract remarks like yours, suggesting that the presence of black student athletes in our schools is somehow indicative of wrongdoing on some level. Pray tell, what can we do in this situation to be "right?" Allow black students, but only with the proviso that they cannot participate in athletic activities?

 

Lastly, I don't think I'm particularly sensitive, and I certainly don't support any of the liberal persons or causes you ascribe to me. I'm a retired cop, hardly a field for the sensitive and easily shocked. In my day, I was regarded as a good interrogator. One of the first principles of interrogation is that upon accusation, innocent people deny the charge, while the guilty obfuscate. If not in my first post, certainly in my second, I accused you of racism. Note that your response begins with an attack on me, and moves on to discuss your Nordic heritage. You never deny the accusation. You'll throw it in now, of course, since you've been reminded of what non-racists would do in your position.

 

I have a number of friends in Sweden and have travelled there and Denmark extensively. They've taken in a massive number of refugees, from Somalia and Yemen, the former Yugoslavia, and the Middle East. It's become an extremely diverse culture. Racist acts and statemenst are not only frowned upon, they're punishable. You may claim them as ancestors, but I suspect they're not very likely to claim you.

Wow, I am eternally in your debt for the sociology, geography, interrogation, etc. lessons. However, as to diversity in Nordic countries, their diversity is right up there with Bledsoe county. I'm sure we all ought to aspire to live in countries where racist statements are punishable. You would certainly have my vote for arbiter of what is a racist statement. Heck, you already fancy yourself with the ability to ferret out racist thought.

As for being a racist, I attended the first school (private) to integrate in 1966 in one of Tennessee's larger cities and observed the team bus turned away from a restaurant when it refused to serve our black players. That’s hardly personally experiencing racism but that is racism, not pointing out that a number of our top private schools add students in the 9th grade, many of whom posses above average athletic skills. If you want to attribute racism to the comment, be my guest.

[Grey Ghost]

Oh wow, I love observing ya'lls comments. Did this go from talking about the game to about the # of African-American athletes on each side of the ball. Well I'll let ya'll know something: Dick Butkus, Jack Lambert, Jim Taylor, Steve Owens, Jay Novacek, Lance Alworth, Roger Staubach, Wes Welker, Jason Witten, Peyton Hillis, Bill Bates, Teddy Bruschi, and Tom Brady are all white. Would ya'll take these guys on your team? If that doesn't settle the point: Have ya'll looked at MBA's freshmen and 8th grade class? They have twice the # of African-Americans in those class than Ensworth does? But, I don't hear anybody talking about the direction that MBA is obviously going. I watched MBA football closely when I moved here in 1998, and the culture there has completely changed. I don't know what boosters, or guys like K Woodruff think about it, but I would be concerned with the direction of the program. I used to be an MBA fan, but not anymore. And I'm not talking about the influx of African-Americans, I'm talking about the "culture" of the place, from the way the kids behave off the field to the way they compete on the field. Something has changed about that place. I don't have the reasons or any answers to the solution, but it sure seems nobody is talking about it. I guess when you lose, nobody cares. I don't have a dog in the fight either way, but when I watch how Bowers handles his players compared to McGugin, I'm sending my kid to Bowers every time.

 

Regarding the state championship game, I thought it was ugly on both side of the ball. It reminded me of a bowl game where teams had an entire month off and lose their discipline, focus, and most importantly, their rhythm. Maybe the two weeks off lessens the game discipline. There were several ugly penalties on both teams that negatively interrupted the flow of the game. Honestly, it didn't look like either team deserved to be in the game initially. For the one fella that said the receiver stepped out of bounds on the late TD, that never happened. Nobody ever stepped out of bounds. The refs viewed it as a tie. The tie goes to the runner (just like in baseball). So, the tie goes to the offense. But to prove this point further, Huesman confessed in the Chattanooga paper the Dingess just pulled the ball away from him as they went to the ground. Huesman is a great competitor and has all my respect. For him to say that, it had to be humbly difficult, but he did say it.

 

So, take all that as you will. Great game. Baylor came with a great game plan. Hats off to them. They absolutely brought it to Elder. Outside of the one long run he broke, they shut his butt down. He had his way with them the first time they played, and Baylor definitely adjusted. They played with great heart and guts. The coin just flipped on heads when they called tails.

Edited December 7, 2010 by Grey Ghost

[Grey Ghost]

For someone without a dog in the fight, your posts certainly lean towards one school in particular.

 

If you want to talk about "culture" and off-the-field behavior of students at certain schools, search the archives of the July 2010 Nashville City Paper and the October 2008 Nashville Scene and then report back to us. The sickening, nefarious incident in the October 2008 story could be Exhibit A in such a discussion.

 

You're on a slippery slope when you broach such an issue. Proceed carefully.

 

I know these stories - and I certainly agree with you on this. I am not suggesting off the field behavior, for those stories were certainly embarrassing to Ensworth, but more of an overall "demeanor". But I will accept your advice, lest I lack all the correct information and cease broaching the issue. I certainly don't want to "slip". Therefore, I concede, cause I really don't have a dog in the fight.

[KWoodroof]

Oh wow, I love observing ya'lls comments. Did this go from talking about the game to about the # of African-American athletes on each side of the ball. Well I'll let ya'll know something: Dick Butkus, Jack Lambert, Jim Taylor, Steve Owens, Jay Novacek, Lance Alworth, Roger Staubach, Wes Welker, Jason Witten, Peyton Hillis, Bill Bates, Teddy Bruschi, and Tom Brady are all white. Would ya'll take these guys on your team? If that doesn't settle the point: Have ya'll looked at MBA's freshmen and 8th grade class? They have twice the # of African-Americans in those class than Ensworth does? But, I don't hear anybody talking about the direction that MBA is obviously going. I watched MBA football closely when I moved here in 1998, and the culture there has completely changed. I don't know what boosters, or guys like K Woodruff think about it, but I would be concerned with the direction of the program. I used to be an MBA fan, but not anymore. And I'm not talking about the influx of African-Americans, I'm talking about the "culture" of the place, from the way the kids behave off the field to the way they compete on the field. Something has changed about that place. I don't have the reasons or any answers to the solution, but it sure seems nobody is talking about it. I guess when you lose, nobody cares. I don't have a dog in the fight either way, but when I watch how Bowers handles his players compared to McGugin, I'm sending my kid to Bowers every time.

I never engaged in any debate over whether the athletes from one race were superior to the athletes from another. I responded to a post that suggested something was amiss that there were black players at a prep school. At this juncture, given that I have no connection with either school (and a strong antipathy for one of them), and that the idea of civil discourse is dead, I'm regretting opening this particuar can of worms. Still, it's started, and the occasional skunk fight is good for the soul.

 

I've watched every MBA varsity game (via steaming media) for the last three years, seen 3 games in person, and watched a few sub-varsity games. I've seen nothing I find particularly disturbing, beyond a late hit penalty almost every game. I don't see any changes in the culture that bother me, beyond an undue emphasis on the arts.

 

There are two things worth noting here, one institutional, one personal. MBA is not a football factory. We produce the occasional great team, a lot of good ones, and a few that aren't very good at all. Perhaps the greatest stretch in MBA history was '66-'68, where MBA was 30-0-1. They were book-ended by seasons that were 4-5 and 2-8. As to this season, I'm quite happy with MBA's performance. They had a poor secondary, and offense that never really established what it was trying to do. For all that, they beat Ensworth and semi-finalist Maplewood. They didn't have nearly the talent that BA or Ensworth had, and it showed in the BA game and in the state quarter-final. Baylor? Two teams that are alomst identical, save for Huesman. They held him to 14 points, and had a TD called back on a penalty. In short, Baylor beat MBA at MBA's game, hence my high regard for their team this year,

 

On a personal note...I'm an MBA man through and through. I want MBA to win at everything, and I follow all of the football teams as much as i can from Florida. As much as i want MBA to win, I'm much more concerned with the state of academics. They're turning out National Merit scholars in high numbers and sending young men to great universities. The football team is the most visible part of the school, but in no way is it the most important. The tail doesn't wag the dog, and I'm good with that.

[Grey Ghost]

I never engaged in any debate over whether the athletes from one race were superior to the athletes from another. I responded to a post that suggested something was amiss that there were black players at a prep school. At this juncture, given that I have no connection with either school (and a strong antipathy for one of them), and that the idea of civil discourse is dead, I'm regretting opening this particuar can of worms. Still, it's started, and the occasional skunk fight is good for the soul.

 

I've watched every MBA varsity game (via steaming media) for the last three years, seen 3 games in person, and watched a few sub-varsity games. I've seen nothing I find particularly disturbing, beyond a late hit penalty almost every game. I don't see any changes in the culture that bother me, beyond an undue emphasis on the arts.

 

There are two things worth noting here, one institutional, one personal. MBA is not a football factory. We produce the occasional great team, a lot of good ones, and a few that aren't very good at all. Perhaps the greatest stretch in MBA history was '66-'68, where MBA was 30-0-1. They were book-ended by seasons that were 4-5 and 2-8. As to this season, I'm quite happy with MBA's performance. They had a poor secondary, and offense that never really established what it was trying to do. For all that, they beat Ensworth and semi-finalist Maplewood. They didn't have nearly the talent that BA or Ensworth had, and it showed in the BA game and in the state quarter-final. Baylor? Two teams that are alomst identical, save for Huesman. They held him to 14 points, and had a TD called back on a penalty. In short, Baylor beat MBA at MBA's game, hence my high regard for their team this year,

 

On a personal note...I'm an MBA man through and through. I want MBA to win at everything, and I follow all of the football teams as much as i can from Florida. As much as i want MBA to win, I'm much more concerned with the state of academics. They're turning out National Merit scholars in high numbers and sending young men to great universities. The football team is the most visible part of the school, but in no way is it the most important. The tail doesn't wag the dog, and I'm good with that.

 

Your allegiance to MBA is well noted. I have always respected your posts. I agree - there is no debate about the rigorous academics. MBA and Harpeth Hall have and probably always will have all others beat in that category. And MBA has had many more good teams than mediocre teams.

[jmjm]

Oh wow, I love observing ya'lls comments. Did this go from talking about the game to about the # of African-American athletes on each side of the ball. Well I'll let ya'll know something: Dick Butkus, Jack Lambert, Jim Taylor, Steve Owens, Jay Novacek, Lance Alworth, Roger Staubach, Wes Welker, Jason Witten, Peyton Hillis, Bill Bates, Teddy Bruschi, and Tom Brady are all white. Would ya'll take these guys on your team? If that doesn't settle the point: Have ya'll looked at MBA's freshmen and 8th grade class? They have twice the # of African-Americans in those class than Ensworth does? But, I don't hear anybody talking about the direction that MBA is obviously going. I watched MBA football closely when I moved here in 1998, and the culture there has completely changed. I don't know what boosters, or guys like K Woodruff think about it, but I would be concerned with the direction of the program. I used to be an MBA fan, but not anymore. And I'm not talking about the influx of African-Americans, I'm talking about the "culture" of the place, from the way the kids behave off the field to the way they compete on the field. Something has changed about that place. I don't have the reasons or any answers to the solution, but it sure seems nobody is talking about it. I guess when you lose, nobody cares. I don't have a dog in the fight either way, but when I watch how Bowers handles his players compared to McGugin, I'm sending my kid to Bowers every time.

 

Grey Ghost, always good posts, but I must disagree on this one. I know both of the coaches and I along with the vast majority would agree that you have that one backwards.

[footballfan1111]

Grey Ghost, always good posts, but I must disagree on this one. I know both of the coaches and I along with the vast majority would agree that you have that one backwards.

Yes Grey Ghost what are you talking about? I'm curious to how the culture has changed since 1998? I attended the school in the early 2000's and don't find it has changed much. If you want to talk about race, MBA started less black players this year (3) than in 2000. Ensworth started 9 on their defense alone. Does this matter? NO. Race has nothing to do with high school football and should be left out of this thread about ENSWORTH and BAYLOR.

[Treadstone]

Didn't realize we were playing those cards RRR. We can play this game all day, back and forth, back and forth.

 

What ever happened to the big red's highway sling-shot heroes?

[rollredroll]

Didn't realize we were playing those cards RRR. We can play this game all day, back and forth, back and forth.

 

So, what you and RedRobin are saying is that mud can be slung at one school, and the recipients of that mud are just to sit there and take it? And yet, if a response is made, then all the fault lies with the one who responded in defense?

 

Two wrongs don't make a right. Nor do one, three, or four.

 

Again, I have offered to remove my non-school, non-incident specfic response if others are willing to remove their more pointed comments. In fact, I am going to do that right now in good faith. We'll see how much good faith is returned in kind.

Edited December 8, 2010 by rollredroll

[RedRobin]

So, what you and RedRobin are saying is that mud can be slung at one school, and the recipients of that mud are just to sit there and take it? And yet, if a response is made, then all the fault lies with the one who responded in defense?

 

Two wrongs don't make a right. Nor do one, three, or four.

 

Again, I have offered to remove my non-school, non-incident specfic response if others are willing to remove their more pointed comments. In fact, I am going to do that right now in good faith. We'll see how much good faith is returned in kind.

 

My post slung no mud, simply pointed out inappropriate slinging on both sides. Nevertheless, in the spirit of cooperation, I have deleted my post from the board. Thank you.

[countrycan]

Grey Ghost, always good posts, but I must disagree on this one. I know both of the coaches and I along with the vast majority would agree that you have that one backwards.

 

Grey Ghost, a swing and a miss. Been friends with an ex-Ensworth coach (he's now much better o$$) and no one wants to mention why none of the original coaches are still there (except for the head coach). You have this one backwards, especially as to the cultural change. Apparently E liked the little success they were having and ran with it (no pun intended).

Edited December 8, 2010 by countrycan

[hdcastle]

Grey Ghost, a swing and a miss. Been friends with an ex-Ensworth coach (he's now much better o$$) and no one wants to mention why none of the original coaches are still there (except for the head coach). You have this one backwards, especially as to the cultural change. Apparently E liked the little success they were having and ran with it (no pun intended).

 

Original Coaches

 

Ricky Bowers- Still there

Roc Batten- Still there

Scott Perkinson- Still there

Brian Epps- Still there

Edd Caudill- Stepped down as OL coach but is still at EHS and may return as a freshman coach.

David Pack- Took the head coach and dean of students jobs at FRA

Jason Hiett- Was offered a position as the head of technical support (a promotion) at a school in Ohio where he still coaches.

Edited December 10, 2010 by hdcastle