Illegal Slam? You make the Call.

[conspirator]

Hey NEWBEE, Have you ever reffed before? Probably not.... did you see the kids head bounce off the mat? Im sure you did......The ref made a good call, It was illegal all day and everyday. Maybe the kid should have finished the match, but thats not our call, its the defensive wrestlers... as the rule book states. Let me ask you a question.... If every kid at that tournament gets slammed like that every match, every period, all day long, then thats thousands of times a day right, on that particular slam?.................. if thats legal every time, right, as you see it? Cause if you say yes, then over the course of the day, theres gonna be lots of concussions, and lots of kids getting carried out of there on stretchers......Try good judgement NEWBEE,... thats what good refs have to do

 

This is a great discussion. I wouldnt say its illegal all day everyday because it appears to be split right down the middle on who thinks it was legal and who doesnt. I would say most ex wrestlers would say it was legal and most parents who have never wrestled would say illegal but thats just my guess.

[Newestguy]

Conspirator, you are spot on. This is a perfect way to tell who has wrestled and who hasn't.

[yomamacantrassle]

Watch footage of some of the best guys in the nation(watch 2 or 3 of Joey Dance's matches). This is almost precisely how they return a wrestler to the mat. Wrestler A could have controlled it a little better. I watched the video and that kid wasn't hurt. He landed on his face and shoulder, held his knee, then got up and walked away fine. If you can walk away from the mat, you can finish a match.

Edited December 18, 2012 by yomamacantrassle

[mfceo]

legal bring back to mat...to many parents on the vagisil

[coachknepper]

I didn't want to comment on this as I know many of you commenting on this topic and respect your opinions as well as the person asking the initial question and his son, Wrestler 'A'.

 

Personally, and I have always taught that type of return myself as a coach, and have called it as a referee...this looks like a perfectly executed mat return and his knee did touch prior to Wrestler 'B' hitting the mat. However, when a referee makes a decision, whether warranted or not and a wrestlers safety/health is in question, I will ALWAYS side with the referee. I have been on BOTH sides of a call like this in the college arena. If I was the coach of Wrestler 'B' and he was truly hurt by said move and it wasn't called illegal I would personally end the match before any more damage was done. If this was a decision made by the Coach to win the match (i.e. "Stay down and we are done, you will win the match Wrestler 'B'") then shame on that Coach.

 

Bryan Knepper

MTSU Wrestling Coach

[ghouse]

Always interesting to see everyone's take. I am going to have to pull out my rule book and casebook here in a few minutes to see if Incan find a directly related rule.

 

I would have to side on the move being illegal by rule but I also wouldn't have an issue if it were not called either. Just because many are ex-wrestlers and think kids should be tougher that doesn't make the move legal or illegal... the rule book is what determines that.

 

A similar example that is often miscalled (and I usually wouldn't complain about it) is the top man returning a standing wrestler to the mat with a cross-wrist and reinforced armbar (Rebar, whatever you prefer to call it). By rule the top wrestler tripping and returning the bottom wrestler to the mat on the side where the wrist is trapped is potentially dangerous upon application. This isn't called by most officials, perhaps because they can't react in time or simply because they aren't aware. I would see this scenario as very similar for the same reasoning... the bottom wrestler has no way to protect himself during the mat return.

 

Of course, I teach the same methodology for lifting and returning a wrestler: lock to one side, hips to same side, square hips and pop through trying to drive to the shoulder. Of course most of the time I show this the bottom man does not have his arm trapped inside the lock. That seems to be the real differentiating factor here.

 

Oh and it is a very common misconception that if the top wrestler hits first it isn't a slam. The rules make no concessions for who hits first. It is entirely possible for top man to hit first and there still be a legitimate slam.

[coachknepper]

Good point Garrett...that is why I said...I will side with the referee every time when it comes to the safety of a wrestler...common misconceptions sometimes work their ways into the "subconscious" rule book...just like the tie going to the runner in baseball (technically not the rule, but accepted as fact due to practicality and calls through the years by those enforcing the rules).

[conspirator]

Yes and while it may not be a rule as far as the lifting wrestler touching first it does come into play I think. The lifting wrestler is much more likely to return the opponent much harder and have a potential pile driver type situation where all his weight comes down on top of him if he doesnt touch first. Its hard to really get your weight and force on top of somebody if you touch first. what do the rules state about the trapped arm? Does it have to be a reinforced arm bar to be deemed potentially dangerous or does the rule simply state a trapped arm like in this case. I think its much safer to have the arm trapped than to post your arm out and risk breaking it, breaking a collar bone , dislocating an elbow or injuring the shoulder but thats just my opinion.

[mocs2011]

Reaching back into my refereeing days, I believe its the responsibility of the wrestler lifting the other wrestler to safely return him to the mat. In this case, he did not return him without injury so it is an illegal slam by definition. Correct call. To many concussions in sports today and not necessary to accelerate into the mat.

[hoosierdad]

Should this have been stopped as potential dangerous?

[CoachGonyea]

This is why I hate discussing on CoachT. I have stayed off here discussing things for sometime. Someone asks for an opinion, someone states their opinion and then the bombs(personal) start flying...

 

Looking at this video, I made my call based on what I saw. While I don't believe the wrestler being taken to the mat was injured(and yes, shame on his coach) I feel the call was right.

 

I do teach my wrestlers how to lift and bring their opponent to the mat. However, In this case, the wrestler in control had other options.

 

Yes, I wrestled... Yes, I believe that wrestling has been watered down since I wrestled... however, I understand in our society that sues everyone for anything, refs have the err on the side of caution. Based on the rule book, this was a call the ref could make.

 

Hoosierdad, I don't think it should have been stopped as potentially dangerous due to the fact that the boy had control of the wrestler as he had him in the air. It was when he brought him back to the mat the referee probably thought he saw loss of control.

[CoachGonyea]

 

I just noticed that the kid was holding his knee (or his calf hard to tell) during the injury timeout. Not his shoulder or head.

 

I agree, I believe there should have just been a penalty point if the ref felt this was illegal. The boy was not really injured... Something has to change on this aspect.

 

I do teach lifting and bringing a kid to the mat, however, I do believe there are techniques to bring someone to the mat without lifting. Lifting needs to be used, but it's gotta be in COMPLETE control. I tell my guys, go ahead and do it, but expect you might get a BOGUS slam call. My reason for saying this was illegal was based on rule book and seeing how the application of the rule has been applied to my wrestlers...