Best match at Team State?

[rlwest40]

There is a huge difference in top ranked teams and non ranked teams. Osceola lost to a Baylor team that was depleted with injuries and not their normal Baylor teams of the past. baylor was no where near a top team on the national rankings. Now there may be some unranked teams close to some teams ranked in the lower echelons but the top ranked teams are there for a reason.

 

Thats my point. Top ranked Collins Hill lost to unranked Osceola (who lost a 2 point dual to Baylor), South Dade, and Camden County yet placed 2nd at the KC tournament with several ranked teams attending including nationally ranked CBHS and yes their line up was pretty much the same. Unranked teams can match up and beat ranked teams, happens all the time. There's several unranked teams that can beat those teams ranked in the 30's and 40's. Only reason they are ranked is because of exposure and submitting results for consideration. The KC and Osceola tournaments are very comparable, and thats the gold bracket at KC not the silver bracket that many end up wrestling in. KC tournament isnt a flomajor this year anymore like it has been in the past. Still a tough tournament though.

 

Another example: unranked Collins Hill only took 12 wrestlers to KC this year and finished 2 spots below ranked CBHS and Collins Hill is ranked around 5th or 6th now in the state of Georgia after losing Bremen. Also, look at unranked Jefferson from Georgia, I believe they placed at the Clash this year so they gain exposure and are awarded a ranking and another team drops out of the ranking. Happens all the time.

 

All I'm saying is there's a huge difference in top 25 or 30 teams and 30 to 50th ranked teams.

[rlwest40]

106 and 220, but that's about it. Could look like BC score?

Not going to be pretty.

 

106 Blansit (Clev) defeated WC this preseason at the Super 32 Qualifier in Georgia if I'm not mistaken

[conspirator]

Thats my point. Top ranked Collins Hill lost to unranked Osceola (who lost a 2 point dual to Baylor), South Dade, and Camden County yet placed 2nd at the KC tournament with several ranked teams attending including nationally ranked CBHS and yes their line up was pretty much the same. Unranked teams can match up and beat ranked teams, happens all the time. There's several unranked teams that can beat those teams ranked in the 30's and 40's. Only reason they are ranked is because of exposure and submitting results for consideration. The KC and Osceola tournaments are very comparable, and thats the gold bracket at KC not the silver bracket that many end up wrestling in. KC tournament isnt a flomajor this year anymore like it has been in the past. Still a tough tournament though.

 

Another example: unranked Collins Hill only took 12 wrestlers to KC this year and finished 2 spots below ranked CBHS and Collins Hill is ranked around 5th or 6th now in the state of Georgia after losing Bremen. Also, look at unranked Jefferson from Georgia, I believe they placed at the Clash this year so they gain exposure and are awarded a ranking and another team drops out of the ranking. Happens all the time.

 

All I'm saying is there's a huge difference in top 25 or 30 teams and 30 to 50th ranked teams.

 

Yes, I agree. All of those teams you listed were probably just out of contention for rankins so they werent that far behind teams ranked in the 35-50 range. I was refering to top ranked teams 1-20 or so and especially top 10. Those teams are usually pretty legit from my experience.

[HSDAD]

106 Blansit (Clev) defeated WC this preseason at the Super 32 Qualifier in Georgia if I'm not mistaken

 

As long as they don't get beat up too bad, WC could place. They

have wrestled ALOT of matches this year. Recovery, recovery, recovery !

I hope they haven't peaked too early. We will see how much gas and heart

are left in the tank in February.

[BringBack119]

Blansit from Cleveland will beat whomever Wilson Central puts in that weight class. Caleb Berta or Lane Dickeson.

[rlwest40]

As long as they don't get beat up too bad, WC could place. They

have wrestled ALOT of matches this year. Recovery, recovery, recovery !

I hope they haven't peaked too early. We will see how much gas and heart

are left in the tank in February.

 

High school wrestlers should be able to handle 70 matches in regular season not counting preseason, postseason or fs/greco

[texas23]

only 70,,,,,,,wimp

[rlwest40]

only 70,,,,,,,wimp

 

Hahaha! Yeah 70 reg season.....around 120 or 130 total with preseason, postseason and fs/greco! Heck if a middle school kid can do it then why not right?

[TNwrestler2015]

I know at Wilson Central last year the boys who had been varsity all season long got about 60-70 matches regular season. About 10-15 preseason, and postseason I don't really know I would just spitball in the range of 15-25

[ghouse]

Mr. West,

 

I have avoided wading into this discussion until I could do a little homework to back-up my opinions with facts as opposed to my gut knowledge. What it really comes down to is that you have made some statements that I don't think are factual or can be backed-up. This isn't an attack on you but more of a desire to set the record straight. You are an ardent fan of whichever program you are a part of (I believe you posted in GA quite a bit for Gordon Lee as well) and I have a lot of respect for that but I believe it may be clouding your judgement just a bit... let's take a look at a few statements:

 

Not taking away from KC tournament because I liked it, just saying after attending both they are very comparable in talent and depth despite how many nationally ranked teams are at each one, it can be misleading.

 

That is exactly what you are doing and I think your statements are a bit off.

 

Usually get around 8 matches at KC if memory serves from last year, 3 or 4 in pool play on 1st day and the tournament the 2nd day. Great tournament, guaranteed lots of quality matches and don't have to worry about a wrestler going two and out.

 

After going to both KC and Osceola tournaments I think they are very even as far as depth and talent, Osceola quarterfinals and semifinals were comparable to most tournaments finals. Main difference between the two is the round robins and multiple brackets at KC (two 16 man brackets wrestle back to 16th) while Osceola is a straight up dbl elimination 32 man bracket. I think KC and the Cheesehead are the only two tournaments to use this format and guarantee 8 matches in two days regardless of wins/losses.

 

Both great tournaments and very deep, lot tougher than state.

 

I would agree that both are good tournaments and likely a lot tougher than our state at most weights. There are many tournaments out there that use the pool into separated bracket format (ex. Granite City's Red Schmitt Holiday Classic that CBHS competes in)... it is a good format that ultimately puts most wrestlers against comparable competition at some point (especially if the pools are separated properly with early seeding). The tournament format is very different from a standard bracketed tournament and makes for a grind of an event. All of that said I do not believe that they are anywhere near comparable on depth and talent. Others have already pointed out the difference in the number of ranked teams so I won't bother with that but I will refute a few of your other arguments concerning that below.

 

Regardless of the number of ranked teams I think you will find that the number of top individuals and overall depth is better at KC than the FL tournament. Not to say that the FL tournament isn't good because it clearly is a solid event and any tournament may be tougher than another at a given weightclass.

 

I checked into the number of nationally ranked individuals at the Osceola tournament. Using the current Intermat rankings I saw two wrestlers who were in the rankings. Ariel Dominguez of Osceola at 106 and Jared Prince of Palm Harbor University at 120. Other than those two there were no others who are currently ranked in the top 20 in the nation. I did notice two other wrestlers who have been in and out of the rankings lately: Fox Baldwin at 145 and Jason Grimes at 195. Now let's compare that to KC... according to the preview for the KC tournament there were 14 nationally ranked wrestlers in the event (that number would be up using current rankings) and only 4 weights did not contain a nationally ranked wrestler (that weight would be 2 using current rankings).

 

It seems to be that KC would be the tougher tournament from both a team and an individual perspective Unless of course you wish to discount the rankings again... don't worry I will address this shortly.

 

Osceola would probably win against 5 to 7 out of those 9 ranked teams at KC. The top 4 teams at Osceola could compete very well at KC. Some of those ranked teams are still holding on to previous year's rankings and slowly dropping.teams ranked in the 30-50 range move up and down and in and out of the rankings a lot cuz its just not as nailed down as the top 20 to 25 teams.

 

In order to finish ahead of 5-7 of the ranked teams there Osceola would have needed to finish between 3^rd and 5^th at the tournament and been ahead of teams like Kearney, Tuttle, Bettendorf , Neosho, & CBHS and at the highest you have them finishing ahead of Blue Springs and Edmond North.

 

Given the line-up Osceola had I just can’t see that happening. I am basing that on reviewing their line-up from their event where the two kids I think they have who could contribute big points were 145 Fox Baldwin and 195 Chris Pagan. They have a few other kids who would contribute and make the top bracket but those two are the best shots and serious points.

 

Now let’s do another comparison… Cleveland finished ahead of Osceola at their tournament with essentially the same line-up as they had at GP West. The only line-up difference being Ezra Taylor in at 138 at GP West in place of Joel Simpkins, which I would argue as an upgrade given that Wittman defeated Simpkins and lost to Taylor (although both matches are likely toss-ups). So that would seem to indicate a typical ordering of 1) CBHS 2) Cleveland 3) Osceola.

 

Now given that, let’s look at the statement that Osceola would finish ahead of 4-7 of the nationally ranked teams at KC. If we figure that CBHS did not accomplish that feat (actually finishing behind all of them) then it seems less likely. Of course, CBHS did not have their typical line-up in place for that tournament (down around 2 starters that would have made an impact). It could be argued that CBHS could have finished as high as 5^th given that they finished well ahead of the 5^th place team (Neosho, MO) two weeks later. However, that was a different type of tournament (similar format but not the same depth of competition) so you can’t give that straight projection without acknowledging the tournament depth difference. It could be reasonable assumed that CBHS might have finished somewhere between 4^th and 8^th with a full strength line-up. Now put Osceola behind CBHS (not sure how far but I would imagine more than one spot) and they are not finishing ahead of 5-7 of the ranked teams at KC. Another incorrect statement when you really analyze it... but then again you can say anything as long as you qualify it as an opinion and don't back it up.

 

 

Look at last year, nationally ranked Collins Hill Georgia takes 2nd at KC behind nationally ranked Bettendorf, Iowa with all of those other ranked teams in the tournament and places 5th at the Cougar Inv in Florida behind runner-up and unranked Camden from Georgia, #3 and unranked Osceola and #4 and unranked South Dade. There was only one ranked team at the tournament at that was Brandon and they won it.

That's your opinion but like I said I've been to both tournaments. The cougar inv. Is a well known tournament in florida and you can check results and seeds and see for yourself that collins hill varsity was there not their jv.

Thats my point. Top ranked Collins Hill lost to unranked Osceola (who lost a 2 point dual to Baylor), South Dade, and Camden County yet placed 2nd at the KC tournament with several ranked teams attending including nationally ranked CBHS and yes their line up was pretty much the same.

 

Let’s discuss your assertion that the Collins Hill line-ups from the Couger Invitational 2011 (where they finished 5^th) and KCI 2011 (where they finished 2^nd) were the same. I don’t see how anyone could reasonably make that statement.

 

Doing a weight by weight comparison of the 14 weight classes Collins Hill had 8 wrestlers that competed at the same weight in both events. That is barely half of the line-up the same. Collins Hill had 4 wrestlers compete in different weights between the two tournaments. At 126 and 132 they switched between the two events (with their strong wrestler of the two Bradtmueller wrestling up in FL), their 160 in FL was down at 145 at KC, and their 170 in FL moved to 160 at KC. Most wrestling folks would agree that kids move down to reach their optimum weights so that would indicate Collins Hill was not cutting to their optimum weights or could not be there for the FL event. There was 1 wrestler that appeared in each tourney but not the other so those are roughly the wash. So far that doesn’t sound like the same line-up to me, does it to you? Another incorrect statement if you ask me.

 

Now let’s talk about the real kicker… in FL Collins Hill did not have an entrant at 120. That was a weight later filled at KC by Drew Ferguson-Mitchell. Drew won the tournament in KC and likely would have done the same or very close in FL had he competed. Collins Hill only needed 16 points to take 2^nd place outright in FL and would have easily gotten those were Ferguson-Mitchell in the event. A tournament champion would have scored 24 total points (16 placement and 8 advancement) taking no bonus into account which their likely would have been. His appearance wouldn’t have been enough to take the lead at the event however. So let’s talk about the one thing that might have… in FL at 132 Stephen Bradtmueller defaulted out of the tournament with a shoulder injury and scored 0 points for Collins Hill. He was able to wrestle through the injury a few weeks later in KC and finished 5^th at 126 in an absolutely loaded weight class. Let’s assume Bradtmueller is probably a 4^th place finisher at 132 (Norstrem and Locksmith in finals so I doubt he beats either of them and giving him loss in consolation finals because really up a weight from ideal) and he scores 14 points with no bonus being taken into account (and with his nasty cradle he would have scored bonus in several). That puts Collins Hill at 214 points which is well ahead of the competition for 2^nd and about 30 points behind Brandon. CH wouldn’t have gotten enough bonus from those two if healthy and competing to catch Brandon but I think you get my point that having just had two kids healthy (not even everyone at appropriate weights) as they did at KC they finish second well ahead of the teams you had mentioned.

 

the fact that the kc tournament and osceola are pretty even were the points I was trying to make earlier.

 

Now what does all of my analysis mean? It was just my way of pointing out that factual you were quite a bit off regarding them using the same line-up between the two tournaments and using that to relate the strength of the two events. In the long run the tournament in Kansas City is tougher than the Cougar Invitational in FL from nearly all objective viewpoints. That isn't even comparing the Cougar Invitational to the Knockout Christmas Classic in Osceola (the tournament Cleveland attended and that you were trying to compare to KC in your statement). From the looks of the two tournaments and their histories it would appear to me that the Cougar Invitational is tougher than Osceola's event.

 

Another example: unranked Collins Hill only took 12 wrestlers to KC this year and finished 2 spots below ranked CBHS and Collins Hill is ranked around 5th or 6th now in the state of Georgia after losing Bremen. Also, look at unranked Jefferson from Georgia, I believe they placed at the Clash this year so they gain exposure and are awarded a ranking and another team drops out of the ranking. Happens all the time.

 

The example above really doesn't mean a whole lot. CBHS did not get into the national rankings based on their finish at KC... they were lucky to get in in-spite of it. I have already dsicussed where CBHS might have finished at KC with the right line-up but they got in by finishing ahead of Neosho, MO and Archer, GA in IL a few weeks later. At the time Neosho was in the top 50 based on their 5th place finish at KC and Archer was being considered for top 50 and is considered by many to be the #1 or #2 team in GA along with Pope (who is nationally ranked and defeated CBHS at Cleveland Duals). All of that indicates that Collins Hill's finish relative to CBHS at KC isn't indicative of anything. Collins Hill is an interesting team where the tournament format really will show their abilities... CH is built for deep or ultra-deep tournaments like KC because they have a couple of extremely strong wrestlers who will place highly regardless of the event. Over half of their points at KC came from two wrestlers (Sean Russell and Ryan Millhof) and 65% of their points came when you include a third weight (the younger Russell at 106).

 

Unranked teams can match up and beat ranked teams, happens all the time. There's several unranked teams that can beat those teams ranked in the 30's and 40's. Only reason they are ranked is because of exposure and submitting results for consideration. The KC and Osceola tournaments are very comparable, and thats the gold bracket at KC not the silver bracket that many end up wrestling in. KC tournament isnt a flomajor this year anymore like it has been in the past. Still a tough tournament though.

 

All I'm saying is there's a huge difference in top 25 or 30 teams and 30 to 50th ranked teams.

 

I agree that there is typically a large gap between top 25 to 30 teams and those in the bottom portion of the rankings. There will always be a lot of flux in the 40-50 range as teams in that mix either attend big tournaments and move up based on results or slip out due to not winning the smaller events. Often times teams can move in and out of the rankings in that range quickly but the event format and can have a lot to do with how certain teams compare with others.

 

However, that doesn't mean that the rankings aren't a good measuring stick. The teams getting into that bottom station may be close with another 50 teams around the nation who re just outside of the rankings. so what separates them? The answer is attending tournaments where several other nationally ranked teams are or scheduling duals with several nationally ranked teams and competing well in either scenario. In the long run, you have to beat somebody in the rankings to get in 95% of the time. The best rankings will invariably be based on results with a small amount of knowledgeable opinion mixed in, not the other way around.

 

I doubt anyone will read everything I have written and it may kill this thread (I have been known to do that around here) but I hope the few people who do find some nuggets of solid information in there.

 

None of anything I have written is meant to diminish any of the teams, events, or groups mentioned. I am just hoping to give a relevant and rational discussion around tournament strength and format. Many of the teams mentioned have achieved national level results many of us wish we could attain (Collins Hill and some huge national finishes) and have built programs that have been good to excellent for a long time (Osceola and others). Each of those are solid goals for many groups to work towards while others are struggling to build a program, find funding and compete in their local area. In the end everyone is wrestling and most are working hard and that is what it is really about in the end.

[WrestlingLover]

he** hath no fury like a "Ghouse" scorned.

Edited January 14, 2013 by WrestlingLover

[texas23]

This is exactly why I love the G-Man.....slide rule and all! House Rules.